What is a work?

[e.r.m.]

IMO = In my opinion

I think Paul is simply saying "we don't have to be like the pagan's. We don't have to earn God's forgiveness or favor." Similar things were said throughout the OT as well. Many of the laws the Israelites were given were to set them apart. I think this is something that sets Christians apart from many other religions, is that we don't have to DO anything, God's favor and forgiveness does not have to be earned.

Thank you for explaining IMO.
It seems you are saying Ephesians 2:8-9 means we don't have to do anything to be saved as what Paul referred to as works.
The same word was used in Ephesians 2:8-9 as in John 6:29 in greek. In your opinion, why if "works" in the greek in Ephesians 2:8-9 is "doing something physical/earning favor" that the same word in greek also qualifies as believing in Jesus?
Thank you.

 

[javajo]

Thank you for your response. Then are you saying that Ephesians 2:8-9 refers specifically to the works of the old law?

I think it refers to any works, works of righteousness which are filthy rags to a holy God (Isaiah 64:6), works of the Law, by which no man is justified (Galatians 2:16,3:11), and any other good works we may do to save or help save ourselves. Basic Christian Doctrine is we are saved by grace through faith alone, good works following as a result. We are now under a new covenant, the Law of Liberty, in which all things are permitted, but all are not expedient or profitable, where we are to love God and each other and in so doing will fulfill the law. If we love God and others, we should not murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, etc...

 

[javajo]

In your opinion, why if "works" in the greek in Ephesians 2:8-9 is "doing something physical/earning favor" that the same word in greek also qualifies as believing in Jesus?
Thank you.

I know that's not directed to me, but you must understand Jesus said that in John in reply to people who thought they had to do some great work to merit eternal life when all they had to do was believe in Him. He was simply answering in response to their understanding. Anyway, the Bible clarifies faith or belief and works as one reads the whole of it in context.

 

[e.r.m.]

They don't describe the works. The people Jesus talked to thought they had to perform some great work like he had just fed the multitudes, but he was telling them that eternal life is through HIM, believing in him, that he IS the life. So I believe all who have trusted in Him, that he died to pay the penalty of our sins and rose again, HAVE eternal life.

While it is true that John 6:29 does not describe the popular view of works as prorestants see it, when we go only by scripture, Jesus did explicitly and directly label belief in Him as a work, outright.

 

[e.r.m.]

I think it refers to any works, works of righteousness which are filthy rags to a holy God (Isaiah 64:6), works of the Law, by which no man is justified (Galatians 2:16,3:11), and any other good works we may do to save or help save ourselves. Basic Christian Doctrine is we are saved by grace through faith alone, good works following as a result. We are now under a new covenant, the Law of Liberty, in which all things are permitted, but all are not expedient or profitable, where we are to love God and each other and in so doing will fulfill the law. If we love God and others, we should not murder, commit adultery, lie, steal, etc...

That's ok. That definition then, at least the same word in greek is found in John 6:29

 

[javajo]

John 6:29 does not describe the popular view of works as prorestants see it, but Jesus did explicitly and directly label belief in Him as a work, outright.

Again, context. Like I said the Bible clarifies this as it makes a clear distinction between works and faith (belief) over and over again.

 

[e.r.m.]

Again, context. Like I said the Bible clarifies this as it makes a clear distinction between works and faith (belief) over and over again.

I agree with context. This scripture provides context. We can't put the cart before the horse. First the scripture, then the idea. This is one of the direct foundational building block examples of works. Sometimes core scriptures go against what we expect. (e.g. - Mary Magdelene is not recorded in the Bible to have committed a sexual sin). We are in the midst of defining works.

 

[waitasec]

ability? Are trust and confidence actions/works? Or is it displayed by our actions/works?

actions mark out the boundary of our capacity.

it's not an "or". it is being what you are.

Is displaying trust the same as having trust?

how do you display trust if you don't have it?

Can one display trust if they truly do not trust?

no

Does one have to display their trust in order for it to exist?

trust is just a word...it's a noun not a verb.
in order for that word to have meaning it has to be defined

for example: you can say the word pie
what does that word mean by itself without it being defind by an adjective or a verb? it's meaningless.

 

[e.r.m.]

actions mark out the boundary of our capacity.

it's not an "or". it is being what you are.


how do you display trust if you don't have it?


no

trust is just a word...it's a noun not a verb.
in order for that word to have meaning it has to be defined

for example: you can say the word pie
what does that word mean by itself without it being defind by an adjective or a verb? it's meaningless.

'Trust' is a noun, but 'to trust' is action. 'To believe in' is similarly action oriented, and a work according to John 6:28-29.

 

[e.r.m.]

I know that's not directed to me, but you must understand Jesus said that in John in reply to people who thought they had to do some great work to merit eternal life when all they had to do was believe in Him. He was simply answering in response to their understanding. Anyway, the Bible clarifies faith or belief and works as one reads the whole of it in context.

That is a protestant way of dismissing what Jesus was saying. What context are you talking about? What you said about people thinking they had to do some great work to merit eternal life, is fabricated. The context shows that the people were in fact responding to what Jesus initially brought up. It was not the people's idea:

(NASB) John 6:25-27
When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?” [26]Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. [27] "Do not WORK for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." [28] THEREFORE they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (emphasis added).

The people were responding/following up to Jesus's talk about work. "Ok, what are those works then."
There is nothing in this scripture to suggest the people had come to Jesus thinking that they had to do some great work for eternal life. It was Jesus's idea from start to finish. It was in this context Jesus declared believing in Him a work.

This scripture provides context. We can't put the cart before the horse. First the scripture, then the idea. This is one of the direct foundational building block examples of works. Sometimes core scriptures go against what we expect. (e.g. - Mary Magdelene is not recorded in the Bible to have committed a sexual sin). We are in the midst of defining works.

 

[Nadia Faiazova]

The apostle Paul explains that a person who claims to have faith in Jesus should prove it by what he does. An inactive faith is a dead faith and will not lead to salvation. He often mentions the kinds of works that Christians should engage in to demonstrate their faith. For example, in Romans 10:10 we read: “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” Making a “public declaration”—sharing our faith with others—is vital for salvation. No work, however, that a Christian can do, and certainly no effort to fulfill the Law of Moses, will earn him the right to everlasting life. This is “God's gift” to those who exercise faith.

 

[Villager]

IMO, work is simply anything we do.

What we do can be good, bad, or indifferent. We are conscious that some of the things we do are bad. They are not just in our consciousnesses, they are in our consciences. Some of us are not greatly concerned about those things that give us a bad conscience. Others are, and it is those for whom Jesus came. "I came not for the healthy, but for the sick." Healthy people should stop reading now.

Now if we have done something wrong, there may be nothing we can do about it. Even if there is, we may still feel shame that we did that wrong thing. But we have a solution, because Jesus died so that we can be accounted with his own righteousness. And, because he was 'God, with us', and perfect, we can also be accounted perfect. That's an amazing thing in itself, to be accounted with the perfection of God. But the consequence is that God cannot reject his own righteousness. If we are 'in Christ', we are beyond any accusation, spiritually speaking. Of course the consequence of successful accusation, with which our own consciences will agree, is the hell of which Jesus himself spoke so powerfully. He said that it is better to gouge out an offending eye than go to hell with it. Nobody spoke of hell like Jesus did, before, and probably after him. Why? Because he knew how terrible sin is, and he hated it.

How do we acquire this righteousness of God himself? Simply by believing that we have it. Of course, if we act in a reasonable manner, we will be grateful for salvation from hell, and will do loving things for him, and for everyone, out of that gratitude. We will share Jesus' attitude to sin, and hate it, also. We will hate sin in others, but not nearly as much as we hate it in ourselves. So we will become sanctified, seeing ourselves 'grow in Christ', possessing his qualities 'in increasing measure'.

What we cannot do, sensibly at any rate, is imagine that what we do earns us our salvation. What we do out of love for Jesus is only our duty to others. If we give all we have to the poor, it will not salve our consciences from even one wicked act that we have done. We must rest in the Christian sabbath, the rest of knowing that we need not work for our righteousness, and could not do so anyway.

And yet, people are told that they can work in order to be justified, by good deeds of charity, by religious acts of different sorts; but not one of them, however virtuous and even biblical they may seem, is effectual. Just as soon as we suppose that the righteousness of Christ is insufficient, and needs 'topping up', we blaspheme, and stand in danger of hell fire. 'Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end.' Heb 12:2 GNB

 

[vnct]

Ephesians 2:8-9 shows us that we are saved by grace, not by works.
According to the Bible, what constitutes a work?
What was the author of Ephesians referring to?
Does the popular modern-day definition "a work is anything you do" have Biblical support or is it accepted only because it's been handed down for so long that no one questions it?

a 'work' is simply a physical action of the body. brushing your teeth is a 'work'. driving a car is a 'work'. some 'works' are particularly virtuous (charity), while others are aberrated/corrupt (kidnapping).

 

[e.r.m.]

a 'work' is simply a physical action of the body. brushing your teeth is a 'work'. driving a car is a 'work'. some 'works' are particularly virtuous (charity), while others are aberrated/corrupt (kidnapping).

As has been an ongoing theme, people have been spitting this particular definition out since at least 1987, when I first heard it. People often say this without thinking as this response has been programmed/imbedded into the protestant mind. (Kindof like an urban myth like that insane one where we use only 10% of our brain. People believe that all the time w/o ever checking if it's true.) People don't question this works definition. But also since 1987, people have often failed to back this definition with scripture unless asked and even afterward. Until such time that Biblical support for this works definition is established, it holds no weight, a doctrinal myth of whose origin no one knows.

 

[e.r.m.]

What we do can be good, bad, or indifferent. We are conscious that some of the things we do are bad. They are not just in our consciousnesses, they are in our consciences. Some of us are not greatly concerned about those things that give us a bad conscience. Others are, and it is those for whom Jesus came. "I came not for the healthy, but for the sick." Healthy people should stop reading now.

Now if we have done something wrong, there may be nothing we can do about it. Even if there is, we may still feel shame that we did that wrong thing. But we have a solution, because Jesus died so that we can be accounted with his own righteousness. And, because he was 'God, with us', and perfect, we can also be accounted perfect. That's an amazing thing in itself, to be accounted with the perfection of God. But the consequence is that God cannot reject his own righteousness. If we are 'in Christ', we are beyond any accusation, spiritually speaking. Of course the consequence of successful accusation, with which our own consciences will agree, is the hell of which Jesus himself spoke so powerfully. He said that it is better to gouge out an offending eye than go to hell with it. Nobody spoke of hell like Jesus did, before, and probably after him. Why? Because he knew how terrible sin is, and he hated it.

How do we acquire this righteousness of God himself? Simply by believing that we have it. Of course, if we act in a reasonable manner, we will be grateful for salvation from hell, and will do loving things for him, and for everyone, out of that gratitude. We will share Jesus' attitude to sin, and hate it, also. We will hate sin in others, but not nearly as much as we hate it in ourselves. So we will become sanctified, seeing ourselves 'grow in Christ', possessing his qualities 'in increasing measure'.

What we cannot do, sensibly at any rate, is imagine that what we do earns us our salvation. What we do out of love for Jesus is only our duty to others. If we give all we have to the poor, it will not salve our consciences from even one wicked act that we have done. We must rest in the Christian sabbath, the rest of knowing that we need not work for our righteousness, and could not do so anyway.

And yet, people are told that they can work in order to be justified, by good deeds of charity, by religious acts of different sorts; but not one of them, however virtuous and even biblical they may seem, is effectual. Just as soon as we suppose that the righteousness of Christ is insufficient, and needs 'topping up', we blaspheme, and stand in danger of hell fire. 'Let us keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from beginning to end.' Heb 12:2 GNB

Will respond by tomorrow.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

according to Jesus you are saved by works
matthew 25:31-46 is a pretty straightforward definition of what constitutes a "work"

Is believing on Him a work?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

He did say those who do the will of my Father would enter heaven, and what is his will?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

How did will become work? Also, in that passage of John why do you think the people changed the subject and started asking about works instead of how Jesus got to the other side of the lake?

 

[e.r.m.]

How did will become work? Also, in that passage of John why do you think the people changed the subject and started asking about works instead of how Jesus got to the other side of the lake?

Believing in Jesus is a work according to John 6:28-29. Therefore, in in Ephesians 2:8-9, the author was not referring to all works, otherwise, believing in Jesus would not save either. So, "which" works was the author referring to?
The people did not change the subject, Jesus did. Look at John 6:25-27. The people started asking about works in response to what Jesus brought up.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Believing in Jesus is a work according to John 6:28-29.

It says it's the work of God not man.

The people did not change the subject, Jesus did. Look at John 5:25-27.

Um, the people found Jesus on the other side of the sea and and asked how he got there. Jesus addressed that with a rebuke about their motives for wanting to find Him. The people then began asking about works. That seems like a change of subject to me.

 

[e.r.m.]

The apostle Paul explains that a person who claims to have faith in Jesus should prove it by what he does. An inactive faith is a dead faith and will not lead to salvation. He often mentions the kinds of works that Christians should engage in to demonstrate their faith. For example, in Romans 10:10 we read: “With the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation.” Making a “public declaration”—sharing our faith with others—is vital for salvation. No work, however, that a Christian can do, and certainly no effort to fulfill the Law of Moses, will earn him the right to everlasting life. This is “God's gift” to those who exercise faith.

It appears to me that this public declaration was written in the original greek in a way that the person is declaring to Jesus directly that Jesus is now his master. "I declare you Lord over me." Although there are scriptures that say we must declare this to others too (of course), I get the impression Romans 10:10 in particular is not one of them. Let me know what you think. I'm pretty certain and can provide scriptures, if you wish, that sharing our faith with others is one of the works referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9 and not essential to getting saved. Thank you.