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What is a work?

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
It says it's the work of God not man.
Um, the people found Jesus on the other side of the sea and and asked how he got there. Jesus addressed that with a rebuke about their motives for wanting to find Him. The people then began asking about works. That seems like a change of subject to me.

Read it again:

(NASB) John 6:27-28
"Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

[28] THEREFORE they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" (emphasis added).

After the rebuke, Jesus brought up the topic of work.

It says "Therefore they said to Him..."

Jesus "started" the talk about work, then the people followed.

The grammar "the work of God" could go both ways. Jesus answered a direct question "What shall we do?" with a direct answer.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

I believe “works” in this verse is in reference to any effort on one’s part to earn God’s favor or grace rather than simply believing Him and accepting His free gift of salvation through Christ. I think the verses below, which are a little further on in the same passage show that the word “works” refers to the OT laws in particular:

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity,that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Eph. 2:14-18

I have faith that the sun will rise each day, I believe that it will rise again tomorrow. My faith or belief that the sun will rise contributes nothing to its rising and I can take no credit that it is up in the sky. Neither does my faith in the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ add any effort or work to that which Christ has already accomplished.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

I believe “works” in this verse is in reference to any effort on one’s part to earn God’s favor or grace rather than simply believing Him and accepting His free gift of salvation through Christ. I think the verses below, which are a little further on in the same passage show that the word “works” refers to the OT laws in particular:

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity,that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Eph. 2:14-18

I have faith that the sun will rise each day, I believe that it will rise again tomorrow. My faith or belief that the sun will rise contributes nothing to its rising and I can take no credit that it is up in the sky. Neither does my faith in the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ add any effort or work to that which Christ has already accomplished.
I thank you for your thoughtful response. Will try to reply by tomorrow.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

I believe “works” in this verse is in reference to any effort on one’s part to earn God’s favor or grace rather than simply believing Him and accepting His free gift of salvation through Christ. I think the verses below, which are a little further on in the same passage show that the word “works” refers to the OT laws in particular:

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity,that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Eph. 2:14-18

I have faith that the sun will rise each day, I believe that it will rise again tomorrow. My faith or belief that the sun will rise contributes nothing to its rising and I can take no credit that it is up in the sky. Neither does my faith in the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ add any effort or work to that which Christ has already accomplished.
I agree 100%! Thing is, God is sooooo infinitely holy, good and righteous and we are all sinners, dead in trespasses and sins, hopeless without the mercy and grace of God to have stepped in and saved us himself, thus deserving all the credit and glory that no man may boast. The first mistake people make is thinking they will try to do something to merit God's favor, which only complicates the issue. First one should understand what God has already done and then receive it humbly as a sinner totally unable to save or help save themselves. When we see that even the very best of us are far, far from God that we are dead in sin and we call out to God to save us, he does so, he gives us life, and it is eternal. Grace is free to sinners who know just how bad off they really are, and once accepted the person will never be the same again. Grace is amazing, but to many, it is just a little help, because after all, they reason, I'm not so bad a fellow. Guess what? Yes you are. And I am, too.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Eph. 2:8-9

I believe “works” in this verse is in reference to any effort on one’s part to earn God’s favor or grace rather than simply believing Him and accepting His free gift of salvation through Christ. I think the verses below, which are a little further on in the same passage show that the word “works” refers to the OT laws in particular:

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity,that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Eph. 2:14-18

I have faith that the sun will rise each day, I believe that it will rise again tomorrow. My faith or belief that the sun will rise contributes nothing to its rising and I can take no credit that it is up in the sky. Neither does my faith in the gift of salvation offered through Jesus Christ add any effort or work to that which Christ has already accomplished.
I appreciate the eloquence with which you write. Very inspiring. We must be emotionally connected to God and you seem to be. However, I think you'll agree that the emotional connection must go hand in hand with analytical exegesis. We as humans are very prone to believe well expressed persuasions. Presented information just has to "feel right" for us to believe it, it doesn't have to be true. Just look at how many people believe the fallacy that we use only 10% of our brain. When it feels like it already makes sense, people don't feel the need to look it up. When it comes to the Bible, investigating analytically concepts such as grace, works, and redemption through Jesus our Lord may seem crass, but the Bereans did it. It is still important. We need to sift between actual scripture and popular terminology. Informed emotional decisions are better than non-informed emotional decisions. It is then that our emotional relational with God can have security. With regard to the works of the law and faith that you mentioned, I encourage you to look up philosophic dualism. I am not advocating, but denouncing philosophic dualism. There's A LOT of that vocabulary and beliefs in protestant thought. Indeed, through Him we access by the one Spirit to the Father. But the analogy about the sun rising and our faith not adding any effort to what Christ has already accomplished, that is not scripture, but rhetoric. The "adding" terminology is widely used. I have also heard the variation of "is God's grace enough?", still tapping into the idea that we cannot add to what God has done..You may have a point where Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to the works of the law, but what is the actual origin of the concept that "works = any effort"? The origin is not scripture but philosophic dualism, look it up and see. Ephesians 2:8-9 does not mention merit or favor. It mentions grace through faith, not works. These are not the same concepts but have been associated so much that they seem to be. Similarly, the Bible never explains the phrase "through Christ" as "all Christ and none of us", by itself it refers to our faith in following whatever Jesus tells us and for whatever reason He tells us, believing in Him. Ephesians 2:8-9 did say, "through faith". again, different concepts from one to the other. The more we pay attention to the original intent of scriptural passages, the less vulnerable we are to outside influences. Two good examples, Revelations 3:17 original intent was for lukewarm christians to repent, not an invitation from Jesus to "non-Christians" to invite Jesus into their heart. John 1:12 original greek is "to those who accepted Jesus's claims about himself, He gave the authority/power to become children of God.", not -those who received Jesus as their personal savior were now saved. Lastly, I encourage you to look up the concept of simply accepting God's free gift of salvation "God, I accept your free gift. Thank you." Although extremely popular, do you literally see that instruction taught in the Bible? Once we understand God's grace as it is, is far richer than what we make up.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
1 Peter 1:17

New International Version (©1984)
Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
Romans 2:6

New International Version (©1984)
God "will give to each person according to what he has done."
Matthew 16:27

New International Version (©1984)
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
That should settle any silly post-Protestant interpretations of "Works not being essential".

Now, apparently this passage, Rev 3:15 was written to a "Church"...full of "believers".
New International Version (©1984)
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
There's gonna be a lot of lukewarm Christians being spat out, I guarantee.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
I appreciate the eloquence with which you write. Very inspiring. We must be emotionally connected to God and you seem to be. However, I think you'll agree that the emotional connection must go hand in hand with analytical exegesis. We as humans are very prone to believe well expressed persuasions. Presented information just has to "feel right" for us to believe it, it doesn't have to be true. Just look at how many people believe the fallacy that we use only 10% of our brain. When it feels like it already makes sense, people don't feel the need to look it up. When it comes to the Bible, investigating analytically concepts such as grace, works, and redemption through Jesus our Lord may seem crass, but the Bereans did it. It is still important. We need to sift between actual scripture and popular terminology. Informed emotional decisions are better than non-informed emotional decisions. It is then that our emotional relational with God can have security. With regard to the works of the law and faith that you mentioned, I encourage you to look up philosophic dualism. I am not advocating, but denouncing philosophic dualism. There's A LOT of that vocabulary and beliefs in protestant thought. Indeed, through Him we access by the one Spirit to the Father. But the analogy about the sun rising and our faith not adding any effort to what Christ has already accomplished, that is not scripture, but rhetoric. The "adding" terminology is widely used. I have also heard the variation of "is God's grace enough?", still tapping into the idea that we cannot add to what God has done..You may have a point where Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to the works of the law, but what is the actual origin of the concept that "works = any effort"? The origin is not scripture but philosophic dualism, look it up and see. Ephesians 2:8-9 does not mention merit or favor. It mentions grace through faith, not works. These are not the same concepts but have been associated so much that they seem to be. Similarly, the Bible never explains the phrase "through Christ" as "all Christ and none of us", by itself it refers to our faith in following whatever Jesus tells us and for whatever reason He tells us, believing in Him. Ephesians 2:8-9 did say, "through faith". again, different concepts from one to the other. The more we pay attention to the original intent of scriptural passages, the less vulnerable we are to outside influences. Two good examples, Revelations 3:17 original intent was for lukewarm christians to repent, not an invitation from Jesus to "non-Christians" to invite Jesus into their heart. John 1:12 original greek is "to those who accepted Jesus's claims about himself, He gave the authority/power to become children of God.", not -those who received Jesus as their personal savior were now saved. Lastly, I encourage you to look up the concept of simply accepting God's free gift of salvation "God, I accept your free gift. Thank you." Although extremely popular, do you literally see that instruction taught in the Bible? Once we understand God's grace as it is, is far richer than what we make up.


Thank you for your thoughtful response also. Maybe you could more clearly express what you believe grace is and what one must do for salvation. I’m still not quite sure.


I agree completely that one’s belief, especially concerning spiritual matters which impact eternity, should be based on truth rather than emotion. I do not consider myself a Protestant, nor do I belong to any denomination. Since being saved I simply read the scriptures and base my beliefs on God’s Word, preferring not to get sided-tracked by various theologies or philosophies. I also agree with you about the importance of searching the scriptures as the Bereans . I believe scripture interprets scripture. In answer to your question I do believe the scriptures are clear that the gospel message is simple and salvation is freely given to those who place their faith for forgiveness of their sins and hope for eternity totally and completely in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:29-31

And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3: 4-6

Over and over again the word of God verifies this:
· [FONT=&quot]Romans 3:27[/FONT]
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
· [FONT=&quot]Romans 9:32[/FONT]
Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 2:16[/FONT]
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:2[/FONT]
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:5[/FONT]
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:10[/FONT]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
I do not discount works as if they are not important or have no place in the Christian life. I do not believe that a person can make a one-time claim to believe in Jesus and then just go their merry way living a lukewarm or sinful lifestyle. Knowing Jesus and living in a relationship with Him changes everything and begins a process over one’s lifetime causing them to desire to please Christ each day and hate sinning. The difference is that while I believe there are no “works” which are needed for salvation; good works are the result of salvation. Even then, I don’t think the works are to be our own works of trying to keep rules and laws in our own effort or the flesh, but in the Spirit and the law of Christ as the scriptures says:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 3:24

Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30

Jesus is sufficient for me, all credit goes to Him for my salvation and my sanctification, I believe this and believe it is according to the teaching of the scriptures. My part is to simply keep trusting and following Him as He leads each day.



To Him be the glory both now and forever.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
1 Peter 1:17

Romans 2:6

Matthew 16:27

That should settle any silly post-Protestant interpretations of "Works not being essential".

Now, apparently this passage, Rev 3:15 was written to a "Church"...full of "believers".
There's gonna be a lot of lukewarm Christians being spat out, I guarantee.


I agree there will be those who claim the name of Christ, but who never knew Him who will be spat out. They are those were never saved doing works in the flesh using the name of Christ with self-serving motives instead of knowing or serving Christ. But I don't think these were ever true Christians. Although Jesus was speaking to the churches in Revelation, not everyone who goes to church is a true believer.



I believe the scriptures indicate there is the judgment seat of Christ for believers who will gain or lose rewards depending on whether or not their works were done in the flesh or the Spirit. Some believers may be saved to eternal life because they did truly believe the gospel, but receive few rewards if they lived most of their life in the flesh. Only God knows who or who has not truly believed in Jesus Christ as their Savior.


Then there is the great white throne judgment for all who have rejected salvation through Christ.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Thank you for your thoughtful response also. Maybe you could more clearly express what you believe grace is and what one must do for salvation. I’m still not quite sure.


I agree completely that one’s belief, especially concerning spiritual matters which impact eternity, should be based on truth rather than emotion. I do not consider myself a Protestant, nor do I belong to any denomination. Since being saved I simply read the scriptures and base my beliefs on God’s Word, preferring not to get sided-tracked by various theologies or philosophies. I also agree with you about the importance of searching the scriptures as the Bereans . I believe scripture interprets scripture. In answer to your question I do believe the scriptures are clear that the gospel message is simple and salvation is freely given to those who place their faith for forgiveness of their sins and hope for eternity totally and completely in the Lord Jesus Christ.


Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 16:29-31

And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Cor. 3: 4-6

Over and over again the word of God verifies this:
· [FONT=&quot]Romans 3:27[/FONT]
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
· [FONT=&quot]Romans 9:32[/FONT]
Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 2:16[/FONT]
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:2[/FONT]
This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:5[/FONT]
Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—
· [FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:10[/FONT]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
I do not discount works as if they are not important or have no place in the Christian life. I do not believe that a person can make a one-time claim to believe in Jesus and then just go their merry way living a lukewarm or sinful lifestyle. Knowing Jesus and living in a relationship with Him changes everything and begins a process over one’s lifetime causing them to desire to please Christ each day and hate sinning. The difference is that while I believe there are no “works” which are needed for salvation; good works are the result of salvation. Even then, I don’t think the works are to be our own works of trying to keep rules and laws in our own effort or the flesh, but in the Spirit and the law of Christ as the scriptures says:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. John 1:17

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 3:24

Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Acts 15:10
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30
ufficient for me, all credit goes to Him for my salvation and my sanctification, I believe this and believe it is according to the teaching of the scriptures. My part is to simply keep trusting and following Him as He leads each day.



To Him be the glory both now and forever.

I admire your Berean attitude. Although you do not identify yourself as protestant, your beliefs are consistent with theirs, gathering from your responses to me and Shermana. Later tonight or tomorrow, I intend to offer you a history that does not follow the protestant timeline, but does follow scripture. Please do try to familiarize yourself with philosophic dualism so that what I will say will make sense. In doing so, I will answer your question. Take care.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
The two are not mutually exclusive, as scripture has demonstrated.

but what about what real life has demonstrated, doesn't that count?


funny, i don't go around killing people because i think it's not a good thing to do, do you?
 
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Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
The scriptures never claim to be the word of God. However, they point to Jesus as the real word of God.

The word grace is translated from charis, from which we get charisma. While one of its characteristics is that its a free gift of God, it is actually becoming LIKE God. As you become more like God, your actions will reflect that. This transformation comes from the Spirit and not from human effort. Your acts should come out of your heart and not the other way around.

II Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
NIV
 
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e.r.m.

Church of Christ
In Christ,
Jesus was born at the time God determined to bring His people back to Him, to seek and to save what was lost. John the baptist and Jesus collectively spent years preparing people's hearts. They instructed people to repent of their sins. Jesus told people to estimate the costs of being his disciple, to deny & die to themselves. Jesus demonstrated God's compassion for people with the healings and feedings. Jesus followed his Father's plan, Jesus was the perfect conveyor of everything God (John 12:47-50). After three years of working at returning Israel's hearts to God Jesus died for all our sins. Then Jesus, now with all authority, and for the first time, told his apostles to go global, to make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who don't believe will be condemned. So they did. Following Jesus's instruction, Peter commanded those at Pentecost to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins. This was after his sermon, after Peter uttered "those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved", and with pricked hearts the people asked him "What shall we do?" Peter Later said, "baptism, which now saves you also"- consistency. Paul said we're baptized into death so we may walk in the newness of life. Anyway, the years and centuries pass. The catholic church decides to prevent splintering of doctrine by keeping the scriptures from people and they succeed for a while. The catholic church makes a million compromises to God's word. They keep the forgiveness part if baptism mentioned in Acts 2:38, but they start sprinkling instead of immmersing sick people, then they expand that to babies, then all baptisms are through sprinkling babies. Wycliff comes along and gives people back the scriptures. The catholic church lets loose Johan Teztel with his indulgences and ticks off Martin Luther. Before you know it, we got a reformation movement. Just before the reformation another movement has already taken hold of big chunks of the world and makes its way to Europe. This movemrnt is called humanism, a very practical worldy philosophy that emphasizes what is seen and de-emphasizes faith. In Switzerland, a young man Ulrich Zwingli gets his bachelor's and his Master's degree in a megacenter of Humanism, the University of Basil. Then this humanist becomes a priest. With his practical background, he throws out the catholic liturgy and preaches only the Bible and makes other practical changes and radically simplifies the catholic worship, removing pomp and ceremonies and wardrobe. When his practical training he confronts the catholic's version of baptism, he goes by what is seen rather than faith and begins a movement which said I can't physically see "physical water" washing away "spiritual" sins. He concluded baptism washing away sins was impractical. Although this may seem spiritual to some, its origin was largely philosophical. He made a philosophical humanism conclusion about baptism. His idea took hold because he freed the swiss from catholic domination. His people loved and protected him, not because these people were studiously examining the scriptures. The people were willing to believe anything he told them. In addition, when people are deprived of the opportunity to be a Berean, they are very vulnerable to any kind of teaching. They have no training with which to protect themselves. Hand in hand with the availabilty of the Bible came humanism. The reformation was 50%Bible/50%Philosophy. Along with Zwingli's humanism colored sunglasses, his teachings reeked of philosophic dualistic principles. Accordingly, Zwingli asserted that flesh in and of itself was hopelessly corrupt and could not possibly participate in the divine process of salvation. Therefore, humans believing in God was irrelavent to our salvation. It interfered with God's sovereignty that He should have to wait on us to believe. No, God saves us or not as He wishes, and belief comes later. In other words - The Elect - humans have no choice in salvation. Some of it may seem christian, but a key characteristic of dualism throughout time is that it blends with the ideas of whatever religion exists at the time and philosophy was huge in Europe at the time of the reformation. The flock did not discern between scripture and philosophy. Anyway, Zwingli went on the attack against the anabaptists "re-baptizers", both through executions and through developing a doctrine that defended infant baptism and denied baptism's scriptural foundations. Zwingli's doctrinal evolution is chronicled at the following link:

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Zwingli wordly side eventually was his undoing. Being the practical man that he was, he believed political reformation should happen alongside religious reformation. On one such politically motivated battle, Zwingli, the fighting priest, was killed. (Yes, Luther joined Zwingli in the execution of two anabaptist leaders- they were all violent).
After Zwingli (or around the same time), in France, a lawyer who was trained in, uh... Humanism, decided to become a priest-John Calvin. John Calvin uttered for the first time in history, that a person is saved at the moment he/she puts their faith in Christ - it was a new concept at the time. Zwingli had taught that a person was saved by predestination "before" he/she believed. Martin Luther, the early church fathers, and Peter & Paul maintained forgiveness of sin/salvation came at baptism (only after belief in Jesus and repentance). Within another two centuries, by the1700's, preachers were using the phrase "receive Jesus"/"receive His salvation" against the original greek wording of John 1:12. In 1950, the first time this phrase appears in any literature, that I found, the phrase "accept Jesus as your personal Savior" came into being. There is a history of the altar call that overlaps with this. Historically, the altar call originated from the mourner's bench, developed for quick and numerous conversions, and then later modified to the modern and more friendly version - the altar call. "Acceptibg Jesus as personal savior" through a prayer or invitation fits in well w/ quick and easy altar call, instead of taking the time to estimate the costs of being a disciple as Jesus said to do (Luke 14).
So when we see Ephesians 2:8-9 on the topic of work that doesn't save us, your assertion that it refers to the works of the law makes some sense. I believe that it also includes references to certain NT works (1 Thess 3:2, II Cor. 8:6) and not to other NT works (John 6:29, Philippians 2:12). There is no Biblical theme that targets works as "any effort." There is not consensus is the protestant community of the meaning of a work. One Baptist convention I called labeled Romans 10:9-10 Confessing "with your mouth" Jesus is Lord, a work and not part of salvation. Another Baptist convention I called said that this physical confession is absolutely necessary for salvation. Some have said the sinner's prayer is a work, because you're "doing" something. The unclarity in the Bible where it does not nail down what a work is once and for all comes from the fact that the original intent was not as people advertise it today. Those authors were not obsessed with the physical corruption of our efforts despite that they are guided by God. Look at Exodus 14:14-17. It wasn't all God, God told the people to act. But it was God's instructions. Numbers 21:9 people were saved when they obeyed God's instructions to look upon the bronze serpent; It was ALL God's mercy even though God instructed them to act. Luke 6:1-10 The jews were upset that Jesus did work on the day that God rested. Jesus said it was lawful to "do good" on the sabbath. There is no consistency when you look at the Father's and the Son's attitude, with the doctrine that the works that don't save is synonymous with "any effort." Ephesians 2:8-9 says A gift of God and not "of yourselves". (NASB) Matthew 21:25 "The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?" Romans 9:31-32 the Israelites did not arrive at the law because it was not from faith in God, but of themselves. He called that "works." (NASB) Matthew 19:16, 21 And someone came to Him
and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" [21] Jesus said to him, "If
you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure
in heaven; and come, follow Me." When we let scripture interpret scripture, the "any effort" definition of
works does not emerge. The only way that works could be taken to the extreme of being defined "any
effort" (even though God gives that instruction for salvation) is if you mix philosophical dualism into -
Ephesians 2:8-9. The Holy Bible itself doesn't state that definition anywhere. It is worldy. Instead, Jesus
is enough, all the credit is His regardless, always will be. His plan, His grace, His baptism for forgiveness of sins, and His Glory.
 
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e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Salvation is from God to us. Get the direction right, you'll be alright.

That is absolutely the direction. No problem there. In fact , it's all from God, including His commands on salvation e.g. John 3:16-17, Acts 2:38, Romans 10:9-10. Those commands are from God, and not "of ourselves."
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
That is absolutely the direction. No problem there. In fact , it's all from God.
Right. And although God knows the future and therefore knows who will trust Christ he is still not willing that any perish, though many will. But those he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, and of all who the Father has given to the Son, none will be lost.
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Right. And although God knows the future and therefore knows who will trust Christ he is still not willing that any perish, though many will. But those he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, and of all who the Father has given to the Son, none will be lost.

(NASB) Acts 17:26-27
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, [27] that they would seek God, if PERHAPS they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (emphasis added).

God gives us the opportunity, and the choice.

I think the NASB could have chosen a better word than grope.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
(NASB) Acts 17:26-27
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, [27] that they would seek God, if PERHAPS they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; (emphasis added).

God gives us the opportunity, and the choice.

I think the NASB could have chosen a better word than grope.
KJV says 'feel after him'. I believe God does give us the opportunity and choice. I chose the free gift! :)
 

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
KJV says 'feel after him'. I believe God does give us the opportunity and choice. I chose the free gift! :)

I chose the free gift and received it when I believed, confessed, and was baptized.

KJV sounds a little better.
 
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