javajo
Well-Known Member
I believe I received it when I believed. Then I confessed and was baptized. So I had no part in it but to believe, as it is from God to me.
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What is a work?
- Thread starter e.r.m.
- Start date
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
And basically He told them not to work but to believe in Him.
Perhaps, but Scripture shows that men are drawn to God through Him:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." John 6:44 KJV
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, willdraw all men unto me." John 12:32 KJV
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Yet Jesus said you must believe on Him to be saved: John 3:16
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
I'd say you have a firm grasp of the obvious.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Good works are not always seen by others, and they are a result of salvation by faith in Christ as these passages clearly show:
In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light. 1 Tim. 5:25
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; Eph. 2
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. Titus 3
In the same way, the good deeds of some people are obvious. And the good deeds done in secret will someday come to light. 1 Tim. 5:25
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; Eph. 2
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. Titus 3
InChrist
Free4ever
e.r.m.
Thank you for your historical treatise of this subject. Im sure it took some time to write it and I appreciate that. I was aware of most of this history in a sporadic way, but you did a great job of making it very concise and easy to follow. I am not sure about one point. Do you believe baptism is necessary for salvation?
I believed and trusted in Jesus Christ when He revealed to me my need of a Savior. The gift of salvation He gave and the change He made in my life was dramatic, like night and day, as the following scripture expresses. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1:13-14). Consequently, I publically confessed Him as my Savior and was baptized.
On this point I think we are in agreement, as you have said:
Jesus is enough, all the credit is His regardless, always will be. His plan, His grace, His baptism, and His Glory.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Absolutely, and since God graciously gives us baptism for the forgiveness of our sins-Acts 2:38/salvation-1 Peter 3:21, then baptism does not qualify as a work. Since John's baptism was from heaven and not from man, then Jesus's baptism is also from heaven and not of man. Fits perfectly with the scripture you quoted above. A work is only what the scripture says a work is.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
I consider baptism as a sacrament, like communion, something one does after they have believed in Christ for the free gift of salvation. Believer's baptism. Some never have the chance to be baptized after they trusted in Christ, but trusting in Christ is what saves anyone. When we trust him our sins are washed away by his blood (death), we are forgiven, and given his perfect righteousness in place of our far from perfect righteousness.
I know many believe baptism is a requirement, I know the verses, I'm not going to argue. I believe in justification alone, by Christ alone, by faith alone. So no one can boast that they did anything (including baptism) except trust in what Christ did on the cross for them, so he gets all the glory. I believe baptism should be the first step of obedience for a believer and it is an outward profession of their faith they already have in Christ and a first step of discipleship.
InChrist
Free4ever
This is exactly what I believe concerning baptism. I believe it is also the teaching of scripture and it is what took place in my own experience. I was saved by Christ, but due to circumstances was not baptized until about six weeks later. I know I was a new creation in Christ during that time period. All I could think and talk about was Jesus and the change He had made in my life and I saw the same forgiveness and salvation take place in another's life after sharing what Christ had done.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Me, too. I trusted Christ and was saved at the age of 8. I didn't even KNOW about baptism until I was 14, so it was six years for me.
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Thank you. Will reply after work later tonight. You deserve a good answer. In the meantime, feel free to read the Googledocs link that is attached.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Mine was from God to me. I had the part that God granted to me. There is scripture for that, but where is the scripture that makes belief exclusive?, which is what your advocating.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Not according to the text. Directly, he told them that belief IS working and he "told them to work" for food that endures to eternal life.
He does draw men & women to Him, true, but I am sorry, I don't understand what point you're trying to make with this.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
My answer to your question is that salvation and forgiveness is the purpose of baptism, according to the scriptures I indicated. Baptism for forgiveness of sins agrees with Jesus is enough, because it came from Jesus, not of ourselves. In the first century world, the teaching of baptism for forgiveness of sin was the norm. They accepted Acts 2:38 without a flinch. They had not been tainted by history. The Jews of the day had the Mikveh, which a, uh ..., rabbi I spoke to confirmed as part of the conversion process. Some even immersed people naked, for fear that the clothes would prevent contact with the water and that person would come out still spiritually dirty. When Jews from all over the world gathered at pentecost, heard Peter's sermon, were cut to the heart, and asked "brothers, what shall we do?" Peter did not say anything approaching, "confess Jesus as your personal savior" or "Just accept His gift of salvation." That terminology, the very idea, was alien. It shows up nowhere in the Bible. Peter said something very different. He said "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."(Acts 2:38). This kind of response didn't seem weird to them. No one objected with the objections of today, for example, "Hey Peter, isn't that nullifying God's grace?" Because it wasn't. In the day, it was accepted. Hence no one ever asked if baptism for forgiveness of sins was necessary. Hence, no scripture uses the word "necessary." However, as a non-challenged doctrine, it is expressed as would be expected. "...for the forgiveness of sins", "baptism, which now saves you also," "those who believe and are baptized will be saved,". Scripture establishes "the purpose" of baptism. When we resist the purpose that God has established, we are being rebellious. So why did the culture change? Why does the culture now feel uncomfortable at the thought of baptism for forgiveness of sins? Why is the culture comfortable with believing things not directly stated in the Bible? And why does the culture now practice a very loose approach to scriptures like Rev 3:17, Jn 1:12? The humanistic influences of Ulrich Zwingli, and to a lesser extent, John Calvin. When we replace (NIV) (Acts 2:38) “Repent and be baptized, every in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." with sayings like "baptism is christian's first step of obedience/outward profession of faith", we're being rebellious, because we're messing with God's word! We may be wiser than those who lived for centuries w/o access to the scriptures, but we are not wiser than the apostles who wrote God's word down. John 12:47-50 and Matthew 15:1-9 puts people into two camps, those who go by God's words and those who don't. I feel more secure being in the camp who follow what's actually written. I hope this helps.
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e.r.m.
Church of Christ
I felt and spoke the same way after baptism.
If I were to say something way outside the box, like "I know that belief in Jesus is required for salvation, but guess what, I confessed Moses as my savior and God saved me. I know the Bible says otherwise, but it happened with me. That is my experience."
Other than sending me to a shrink, you might tell me that my experience cannot invalidate what scriptures say. That "I" am wrong, not the scripture. That's just a far out example. If the scriptures say that baptism is when a person is saved, then an experience cannot prove that the scripture is wrong. The scripture is what holds the weight, not experience. I just wanted to illustrate the concept. Experiences are only valid evidence if they first agree with scripture. Extenuating circumstances isn't something we can pit against baptism. Since God is in control, He will allow a person to get baptized for forgiveness of sin, if it is His will. Compromises in God's word are often made when we compare ourselves to others. Catholics started sprinkling sick people instead of immersing them. Then they made the comparison, if sprinkling is good for sick people, then it is also good for people in inconvenient circumstances, this eventually led to rationalizing infant baptism. In the parable of the vineyard, the early workers got upset when they compared themselves to the late workers. When Jesus gave Peter the prediction of Peter's death, Peter responded with, "What about that disciple?" This is just human nature, not scripture. In these accounts, Jesus rejected the comparison. We cannot use circumstances or experience as leverage to discount scripture, or say, "I've not seen it in scripture, but I've seen it in practice." - Would you not agree in general that if it contradicts scripture, it is not valid?
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waitasec
Veteran Member
like i said, actions define beliefs...
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
is it possible that a person can be be sold on an idea do much that when he/she encounter scriptures that directly contradict the paradigm they've come to know ir when the paradigm doesn't show up in scriptures directly, that the paradigm will actually be more important than the scriptures?
e.r.m.
Church of Christ
Is it possible that a person can be be sold on an idea do much that when he/she encounter scriptures that directly contradict the paradigm they've come to know ir when the paradigm doesn't show up in scriptures directly, that the paradigm will actually be more important than the scriptures?