What is a work?

[e.r.m.]

I consider baptism as a sacrament, like communion, something one does after they have believed in Christ for the free gift of salvation. Believer's baptism. Some never have the chance to be baptized after they trusted in Christ, but trusting in Christ is what saves anyone. When we trust him our sins are washed away by his blood (death), we are forgiven, and given his perfect righteousness in place of our far from perfect righteousness.

I know many believe baptism is a requirement, I know the verses, I'm not going to argue. I believe in justification alone, by Christ alone, by faith alone. So no one can boast that they did anything (including baptism) except trust in what Christ did on the cross for them, so he gets all the glory. I believe baptism should be the first step of obedience for a believer and it is an outward profession of their faith they already have in Christ and a first step of discipleship.

Is it possible that a person can be sold on an idea so much that when he/she encounter scriptures that directly contradict the paradigm they've come to know or when their paradigm doesn't show up in scriptures directly, that the paradigm will actually be more important than the scriptures?

When you propose baptism as a believer's first step of obedience/discipleship without that teaching being in the Bible, (you have never shown a scripture reference for it) you are challenging God's word.

 

[Pegg]

Ephesians 2:8-9 shows us that we are saved by grace, not by works.
According to the Bible, what constitutes a work?
What was the author of Ephesians referring to?
Does the popular modern-day definition "a work is anything you do" have Biblical support or is it accepted only because it's been handed down for so long that no one questions it?

the bible writers were jewish, when they wrote about 'works', they were speaking about 'works of mosaic law'
These are the rituals, regulations, observances,sacrificial offerings, purifications, and circumcision, festivals....these were all 'works of law'

they are a different sort of 'work' to the secular works that were to be rested from on the sabbath.
“no sort of laborious work” is mentioned at Le 23:6-8, 21, 24, 25, 34-36. That would include selling, harvesting, working on your crops, gathering, planting, weaving, sewing...anything that an Israelite did to support themselves financially was a 'laborious work' and differed from 'works of law'

 

[e.r.m.]

This is exactly what I believe concerning baptism. I believe it is also the teaching of scripture and it is what took place in my own experience. I was saved by Christ, but due to circumstances was not baptized until about six weeks later. I know I was a new creation in Christ during that time period. All I could think and talk about was Jesus and the change He had made in my life and I saw the same forgiveness and salvation take place in another's life after sharing what Christ had done.

I felt and talked the same after baptism.

How is - baptism, a christian's first step of obedience/outward profession of faith- scripture interpreting scripture, when there's no scripture for it?
Does a doctrine this fundamental not need a scripture reference?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not according to the text. Directly, he told them that belief IS working and he "told them to work" for food that endures to eternal life.

He does draw men & women to Him, true, but I am sorry, I don't understand what point you're trying to make with this.

Well, you jumped in with the idea that believing in God is man's work. I pointed out that the text said it is the work of God and pointed out other passages where it is the work of God that draws man to Him, ergo, there is no work of man that saves him.

 

[e.r.m.]

Well, you jumped in with the idea that believing in God is man's work. I pointed out that the text said it is the work of God and pointed out other passages where it is the work of God that draws man to Him, ergo, there is no work of man that saves him.

Ok, thank you for explaining. I see the connection. More specifically, it is one of the works done by man, because there are others. Not a huge point, but wanted to make that clear. Again, the 'work of God' is a question of unclear grammar. It could easily refer to work done by man that is God related, especially since Jesus was answering their question "what shall WE DO?" not "What shall GOD DO?" And also because Jesus started this topic 'telling them to' work for food that endures to eternal life. Someone else in this thread referred to the other kind of work, as secular work (not directly God related). Now God does draw men, God enables men, but God doesn't make men believe in Him. Only the "extreme Elect" people believe this. "Drawing" and "Believing" are distinct things. Once drawn, once enabled, it is still our choice and responsibility John 3:18, Acts 17:26-27, and a work, John 6:29 to believe in Him.

 

[e.r.m.]

the bible writers were jewish, when they wrote about 'works', they were speaking about 'works of mosaic law'
These are the rituals, regulations, observances,sacrificial offerings, purifications, and circumcision, festivals....these were all 'works of law'

they are a different sort of 'work' to the secular works that were to be rested from on the sabbath.
“no sort of laborious work” is mentioned at Le 23:6-8, 21, 24, 25, 34-36. That would include selling, harvesting, working on your crops, gathering, planting, weaving, sewing...anything that an Israelite did to support themselves financially was a 'laborious work' and differed from 'works of law'

I agree with you, but I think it also refers to NT works, such as evangelism and feeding the needy.

 

[waitasec]

there is no work of man that saves him.

but isn't belief a work?

 

[Pegg]

I agree with you, but I think it also refers to NT works, such as evangelism and feeding the needy.

yes you are right, the 'works of law' of the old testament were not imposed on the christian congregation, but the NT does speak a lot about them because some jewish christians were having trouble letting go of the mosaic law.

Paul speaks about 'good works' as opposed to 'works', thus there is a difference:
Ephesians 2:9 No, it is not owing to works(mosaic works of law), in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works

the good works are things that spring from love, the sort of works that cause us to reach out to others, to help the needy, to support the weak, to preach to the good news etc
Heb 6:10 “God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name, in that you have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.”

Paul understood that the works a christian is obliged to observe are the works of giving.
Acts 20:35 I have exhibited to YOU in all things that by thus laboring YOU must assist those who are weak, and must bear in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, when he himself said, ‘There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.’”

 

[e.r.m.]

yes you are right, the 'works of law' of the old testament were not imposed on the christian congregation, but the NT does speak a lot about them because some jewish christians were having trouble letting go of the mosaic law.

Paul speaks about 'good works' as opposed to 'works', thus there is a difference:
Ephesians 2:9 No, it is not owing to works(mosaic works of law), in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works

the good works are things that spring from love, the sort of works that cause us to reach out to others, to help the needy, to support the weak, to preach to the good news etc
Heb 6:10 “God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name, in that you have ministered to the holy ones and continue ministering.”

Paul understood that the works a christian is obliged to observe are the works of giving.
Acts 20:35 I have exhibited to YOU in all things that by thus laboring YOU must assist those who are weak, and must bear in mind the words of the Lord Jesus, when he himself said, ‘There is more happiness in giving than there is in receiving.’”

Cool. It sounds very accurate. In all this, I see it consistent that the definition of a work is not "any physical effort/whatever you do." "getting up from bed, punching in a time clock, turning pages of a Bible, opening a door." The definition of a work seems a lot more spiritual along the lines of what God planned in advance for us to do.

 

[Shermana]

If work is not any work you do, I guess feeding orphans and widows (part of the Law of Moses) isn't actually physically doing something. I guess Jesus really meant "If you don't feed and clothe others, it's totally fine, don't listen to anything I actually said about your behavior being counted as important".

It's amazing how Christians try their best to ignore or change what Jesus actually says to suit their convenience.

"Give to whomever asks of you....umm actually nevermind, don't bother, keep it all for yourself".

"Only those who do the Will of my Father....which is to sit and do nothing but talk about me".

"I will reward each according to their deeds...but don't worry, you don't have to actually do anything good that would be a big waste of time!"

"If your left hand offends you, cast it off...just kidding, this is totally metaphoric junk that no Christian should actually take seriously...chopping hands off...behavior...imagine if I actually said your bad behavior sends you to hell and its better to chop your hand off than go to hell, that would be crazy! Oh wait I did say that. Too much wine from the party. Sorry everyone. And about chopping off other things, I was REALLY drunk, don't mind me!"

"Be perfect....by not making any actual behavioral changes, you'll become perfect just by claiming to believe in me. "

"Strive for the narrow gate....by sitting around and claiming to believe in me and not actually listening to any of the commands I've given, those are totally unnecessary, what was I thinking. In fact, don't even Strive for the narrow gate, the narrow gate will come to YOU!"


"It is better to drown yourself with a millstone tied around your neck than offend a little one...ehh, go offend the little ones all you want, it doesn't matter anyway!

"You are neither hot nor cold but lukewarm so you shall be spat out....umm, well there's no actual difference since works don't matter, I just arbitrarily decide who is luke warm and hot on how I feel that day. Try not to get me angry on Mondays.

And then there's Paul who says

"Don't bother actually reading the rest of my Epistles beyond the parts you like where you THINK it says you don't have to obey the Law, even though I explicitly mention the Law such as the part about women being submissive to husbands. You don't have to actually listen to the rest of my long boring epistles, just go by some cherry picked lists that say you don't have to actually do anything, you'll go to Heaven all the same."

 

[e.r.m.]

If work is not any work you do, I guess feeding orphans and widows (part of the Law of Moses) isn't actually physically doing something. I guess Jesus really meant "If you don't feed and clothe others, it's totally fine, don't listen to anything I actually said about your behavior being counted as important".

It's amazing how Christians try their best to ignore or change what Jesus actually says to suit their convenience.

And then there's Paul who says

I don't think you understood me correctly, I am not saying that works Ephesians 2:8-9 have nothing to do with physical exhertion. I am saying the definition of work is not universally one in the same with physical exertion. I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 refers to certain works: e.g.-works of the law, 2 Corinthians 8:23, 1 Thessalonians 3:2, and not to others, Phillipians 2:12. I don't see that works in Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about all types of physical exhertion, like the examples I gave in my previous post, but that it does talk about grander spiritual actions like the examples you gave above. Stuff that God had planned for us after we're saved.

 

[Shermana]

Stuff that God had planned for us after we're saved.

So when Jesus says to "Strive for the narrow gate", he's talking about things after you're saved? Like what?

Even if your interpretation was right, that would mean Christians should be striving every day to do good works to not get the short shrift in the next world.

Why don't you go into detail why Jesus said its better to chop off your hand than use it to go into the fire? In detail.

 

[e.r.m.]

So when Jesus says to "Strive for the narrow gate", he's talking about things after you're saved? Like what?

Even if your interpretation was right, that would mean Christians should be striving every day to do good works to not get the short shrift in the next world.

Why don't you go into detail why Jesus said its better to chop off your hand than use it to go into the fire? In detail.

The works in Ephesians 2:8-9 talks about the event when a person "gets saved" and my previous posts pertain to that. After a person is saved they should be doing good works out of gratitude for God's forgiveness of their sins and to protect their faith 2 Peter 1:10, Romans 11:22. Ephesians 2:10 does talk good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. So that does exist.
The striving for the narrow gate is not included in what is referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9 that doesn't save us. The narrow and wide gates is obviously talking about who makes it and who doesn't. With cutting off the hand example you asked about, Jesus was teaching people to hate and fear sin so they won't go to hell. I am not exactly sure what your asking or what your position is, but I suspect that once it's clear, there will be a lot that we agree on. But we'll see.

 

[Villager]

So when Jesus says to "Strive for the narrow gate", he's talking about things after you're saved?

No. Jesus is here saying that, if one is to be a follower of his, one must shed one's pride, and one's freedom to indulge one's appetites- so there is to be a 'narrowing' of possible actions to be in agreement with his own will. So it's a 'striving' for non-Christians. Even here, striving is a re-adjustment of mental attitude, and is nothing to do with doing good works.

 

[Shermana]

there is to be a 'narrowing' of possible actions to be in agreement with his own will

Kind of clashes with

striving is a re-adjustment of mental attitude, and is nothing to do with doing good works.

Your definition of "actions" must be pretty strange.

 

[Bible Thumper]

Ephesians 2:8-9 shows us that we are saved by grace, not by works.
According to the Bible, what constitutes a work?
What was the author of Ephesians referring to?
Does the popular modern-day definition "a work is anything you do" have Biblical support or is it accepted only because it's been handed down for so long that no one questions it?

If you claim a work is yours it isnt Gods anymore, and youve recieved your reward already. when we Lay our crown back at Jesus feet, we will all realize whos works are whos:^}

 

[e.r.m.]

If you claim a work is yours it isnt Gods anymore, and youve recieved your reward already. when we Lay our crown back at Jesus feet, we will all realize whos works are whos:^}

(NASB)Matthew 21:25
"The baptism of John was from what source, from heaven or from men?"
Although John did the baptizing, it was still from heaven. In a way, what you say makes sense. I must say that I completely agree with you.

 

[Villager]

Kind of clashes

If changing one's mental perspective is an action, it clashes.

 

[Shermana]

If changing one's mental perspective is an action, it clashes.

Why don't you go into more detail about this "changing mental perspective".

 

[Villager]

If I'm persuaded that I have an impartial audience, I might.