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What is God's highest priority?

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
It’s true we have a choice, and it’s true that God has prepared the path to the promised land. It’s not true that God knows we are going to walk the path to the end.

It depends on how we choose to relate to God. If we choose to stretch and test our faith, then we have a chance.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yes, you're right, of course they would be fulfilled--that's the point of my argument, so I'm glad you understand that part, since it seems that others have missed it. I wasn't just referring to bad things humans do to each other, but also to bad things in general that happen, such as starvation and extinction.
So you are assuming that God should be the servant of it's own creation? Specifically us. Why? I can't think of any logical reason to make such an assumption.
The fact that preventing these things is apparently not on the top of any god's priority list is evidence that either God does not exist or if God exists, his top priority is not preventing horrific things from happening,
Again, why would we assume that this would or should be God's priority? Are you proposing that; since God is not serving the desires of man, God is bad?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
I would like to pose a question for theists, namely: what is God's top priority? I cannot prove that no god exists, but there are many types of gods that I can prove do not exist.


I know that an omnipotent god whose top priority is preventing rape and murder cannot exist.
I know that an omnipotent god whose top priority is preventing childhood cancer cannot exist.
I know that an omnipotent god whose top priority is preventing starvation cannot exist.
I know that an omnipotent god whose top priority is preventing the extinction of 99% of the species he created cannot exist.
I know that an omnipotent god whose top priority is having a personal relationship with all of his human creations cannot exist.
I know that an omnipotent god whose top priority is having all humans believe in him cannot exist.


I could give many other examples, but I think the point has been made. If God exists, and he is omnipotent, his top priority cannot be any of the above things. So what is God's top priority? Since it seems like one of the items I listed above would be the top priority of the god of classical theism, it almost seems that if God does exist, then his top priority is to make it look like he doesn't exist.
Your Santa Clause concept of God doesn't exist. If beings are to be free on the evolutionary worlds of time and space then the potential for good and evil, truth and error, joy and suffering are inevitable possibilities.

Gods' priority is for his children to grow through experience according to his plan for creation. But unfortunately, we also suffer from the default of high administrators that betrayed our world and attempted to lead it into rebellion against God plan.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Yes, you're right, of course they would be fulfilled--that's the point of my argument, so I'm glad you understand that part, since it seems that others have missed it. I wasn't just referring to bad things humans do to each other, but also to bad things in general that happen, such as starvation and extinction. The fact that preventing these things is apparently not on the top of any god's priority list is evidence that either God does not exist or if God exists, his top priority is not preventing horrific things from happening,
From a physical (material/ manifested/ incarnated/ human) point of view, your statement is valid and to many, that is how it is: either there is no “god” or there is one and it’s evil.

But there are many other ways of thinking about this. For example, from a metaphysical perspective: if one thought of an omnipotent, omniscient* source to the laws of our reality, as in itself wholly immaterial, yet omnipresent -in the manifestation of those laws (our reality)- precisely through our experience of them; then preventing those experiences (any of them) would distort the overall understanding of the consequences and meaning of those laws.

*) Omniscience accounts for knowledge of all that is thus far and does not eliminate nor processes or change.

Just as one could think that “god” does not intervene because it’s a sadist, one could as well entertain the idea that “god” does not prevent the experience of suffering because suffering is one of the many possible effects of the laws (of physics) that form our reality …and all that is possible within those laws must be experienced if the full meaning of those laws is to be understood (and not just known; 1+1=2 means little without the experience of tangible units).

Humbly,
Hermit
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I don’t think because God can see our choices and actions taking place in any way inhibits, constrains, affects, or alters our ability to make completely free choices.

Well, let me put it this way. If God can see the future and see our choices and actions taking place, is there anything we could choose to do differently than what he already sees and knows we will do?
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Yes, mankind's long history shows bad things humans do to each other.
MAN has dominated MAN to MAN's hurt, MAN's injury as observed at Ecclesiastes 8:9
Bad things in general happen such as 'wrong place wrong time' like the people at the Tower of Siloam - Luke 13:4-5
So, time and unforeseen things happen - Ecclesiastes 9:11
If God would have gotten rid of Adam and Eve we simply would Not be here.
The long passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as sovereign over us.
By God allowing 'man to govern man' has shown to all that man can't successfully govern himself.
man is capable if given straight answers.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Perhaps you should work on your presentation?
Perhaps you should try to understand my presentation.

How you got from what I said:
God does not want worship for Himself. God only wants us to worship Him for our own benefit.

To what you said:
"Love me, Fear me, I will be your slave, just do as I say."

is anyone's best guess.

God wants us to love Him and fear him, which is for our benefit, but God will never be our slave.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It is most interesting how much so many theists know about a deity they claim is unknowable....
God is not entirely unknowable, only the essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) is unknowable.
but through scripture we can know some of the attributes of God and God's will for us in any given age.
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Well, let me put it this way. If God can see the future and see our choices and actions taking place, is there anything we could choose to do differently than what he already sees and knows we will do?
I can’t say I fully understand how God’s omniscience and human freedom works and I’m sure you can’t say with certainty it doesn’t. The scriptures repeatedly encourage people to repent and make changes. Jesus said that…
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.
(Matthew 15:19)

I think we always have the ability, we could choose differently, but whatever God sees happens because we don’t.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

(1) God does not know the future.

(2) If Angels didn't become prideful and to an extent near arrogant, humanity might not have been a thing.

(3) Iblis was an anomaly that left God between rock and hard place, kill him and make a lesson out of him...then every being would worship God out of fear in real time without God's reward and punishment being a delayed hidden thing. So instead he opted to make him the sworn enemy of all good people and the root of evil.

(4) Adam was expected to pass the test, is was unexpected an elite servant of God fail it, yet this didn't diminish the status of he being chosen, since he repented quickly and God knew and trusted him to be a lover of God and God's choice was not diminished.

(5) God could've made it that Adam is a light creature impressing even Iblis and that no trial happened in this regard, but the reward and ascending to God would be pale and heaven would be a pale place for most.

(6) Prophets and Messengers could've been so that there honor goes untouched, they can be not harmed, etc, but it would be too easy to believe, but as the potential to deny them is there, and trial more difficult, so is the reward.

(7) God is unseen but is manifest too, God his hidden and manifest, and the reward would be low if he was totally manifest like the way he will be on day of judgment. He has hidden the hour and greatest proof so that every soul is awarded for what it strives for.

If God manifested himself the way he can with full degree, then one of your top priorities would not be possible, that is a relationship with him in a meaningful way. Everyone would worship God but not on high terms and noble terms, but see God same way you see the physical sun, no big deal type thing, save a few of his elite servants would truly be close to him. Heaven would be meaningless for most, and we would almost suffer from boredom.

(8) The nature of the next world as outcome of seeds place in this world is the best type of afterlife. Now, God gambled with that, true, maybe if he knew most would go to hell, he would have chosen not to risk them for the few going to paradise. But that is 20/20 vision from the outcome after. God expected (but knew the possibilities and probabilities otherwise) that most follow Nuh and his predecessors and successors. But humanity has always rebelled since and the few believers who accept the chosen saviors would become ungrateful after being saved and delivered from their oppressors. Even the Ahlulbayt to prepare for Mohammad (S) and his family (a) were questioned, opposed, starting with Moses (a) being questioned and giving a hard time as well from his people.

(9) The miracles of Prophets are a soft spot between God being hidden and manifest, but it's more on the day light manifest side, while when there are no signs in the open, it's more of on the night side. The reason for delay of such signs and miracles is because the previous generations denied them and made it impossible for God to guide through them without the followers of the guides performing them being in oppressed state. God to delay punishing generations of people and not destroying the world and saving cities from being destroyed has delayed that result which is a big warning in Quran, has hidden the last guide for now. However, you can pray to God for guidance and hope God will allow you to be guided by the guide and meet him and be shown miracles through him.

(10) We are more on the hidden side of God's hiddenness than ever, because of the long delay of Imam Mahdi (a). However, the Quran balances this a bit since it's full of miracles but the type that you have to reflect to see and do a bit of more effort. The Quran is a sufficient sign and proof, however, it would be nice to have the guide back in the open.

TL : DR - God chose to be hidden more so to offer a rewarding experience in the next world with him, then opt to manifest himself for a pale end world and low reward. He has chosen to honor believers and punish disbelievers, however, perhaps, if he knew before hand how little believers there be and how many disbelievers, the trial would have not been opted. Even perhaps humanity not created in the first place. However, God is doing his best to fix the problems with constraints. And one of these is that he won't break his promise to respite Iblis and continue to allow him to challenge humanity and try to degrade them.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Consciousness gives a human being choice between God’s higher and lower (satanic) wills. Still, there are no wills other than God’s. Only how we direct our consciousness.
I'd like to add to the ^above^ besides consciousness: our conscience.
So, there is God's will (Genesis 2:17) and man's will (Genesis 3:6) of self determination.
Unless damaged, we are all born with an in-born conscience.
One's ignored conscience can become so calloused like un-feeling hardened flesh branded by a hot branding iron.
So, how we direct not only our conscious actions, but also how our trained conscience directs us.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
"Love me, Fear me, I will be your slave, just do as I say."​
Fear of God is 'reverential fear of displeasing God' as a loving child would not want to displease a loving parent.
I suppose ' just do as I say ' applies to Jesus' New Commandment found at John 13:34-35
We are to now love others as Jesus loved others. Have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love others MORE than what the old Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18 says.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I can’t say I fully understand how God’s omniscience and human freedom works and I’m sure you can’t say with certainty it doesn’t......
Being an omni-benevolent God He chooses Not to know all things.
The Adam and Eve scenario would Not have taken place if God choose to know their thoughts.
Remember the 'great crowd' (Rev. 7:9) is still an un-known number of people because people make their own choices.
God does Not interfere with our choices and urges us to repent so as Not to perish (be destroyed) - 2nd Peter 3:9
 
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