What is Islamophobia?

[Magic Man]

I am misunderstanding nothing. In all fairness, to say that all Islam is moderate is about as asinine as it is possible to get.

Not if you consider the extremists to be perverting your religion.

This is the same man who said that if the European Union does not accept Turkey into the European Union without any further preconditions it is because they are Islamophobic. Indeed, it's difficult to get much more moderate than that.

I have no idea what that has to do with the quotes you provided. The quotes posted from him seemed to be posted in an effort to show that even a prominent Muslim claims there is no moderate Islam. Was that not the purpose of the quote you posted?

 

[Magic Man]

So, Islam as a complete way of life teaches the individual nothing. Okie dokie.

Huh? Can you rephrase? As written, this doesn't make sense.

 

[Augustus]

The Islamic Human Rights Commission has organised a '2015 Islamophobia Awards'. Many of the comments on the website can indeed be described as bigoted, but these comments are also deemed 'Islamophobic'. Are they really?

Maajid Nawaz - "There's an ideological current among Muslims globally generating sympathy for the same aims as ISIL: enforcing a view of Sharia as law. I call this ideology Islamism"

Angela Merkel –"People are asking me whether one can still share this view when murderers are referring to Islam for their murders which should have nothing to do with Islam. I think that these are legitimate questions. I think it is important for religious leaders to clarify these questions."

Islamophobia Awards 2015: Vote now!

But again, it is a great and highly accurate word that provides real, substantive clarification to the issues being discussed. Were we to force ourselves to use other terminology, the standard of discussion would be so much the poorer for it.

 

[YmirGF]

Not if you consider the extremists to be perverting your religion.



I have no idea what that has to do with the quotes you provided. The quotes posted from him seemed to be posted in an effort to show that even a prominent Muslim claims there is no moderate Islam. Was that not the purpose of the quote you posted?

Perhaps my thinking is too subtle for you. You have to know a lot about Islam to appreciate my comments.

 

[Magic Man]

The Islamic Human Rights Commission has organised a '2015 Islamophobia Awards'. Many of the comments on the website can indeed be described as bigoted, but these comments are also deemed 'Islamophobic'. Are they really?

Maajid Nawaz - "There's an ideological current among Muslims globally generating sympathy for the same aims as ISIL: enforcing a view of Sharia as law. I call this ideology Islamism"

Angela Merkel –"People are asking me whether one can still share this view when murderers are referring to Islam for their murders which should have nothing to do with Islam. I think that these are legitimate questions. I think it is important for religious leaders to clarify these questions."

Islamophobia Awards 2015: Vote now!

But again, it is a great and highly accurate word that provides real, substantive clarification to the issues being discussed. Were we to force ourselves to use other terminology, the standard of discussion would be so much the poorer for it.

I'm not going to get into those specific comments, as it's not important here. As you say, many of the comments were indeed bigoted. In other words, your sarcastic response at the end is indeed true in a non-sarcastic way, if a bit hyperbolic. Just because some people go overboard with something doesn't invalidate the something to begin with. Some people go overboard with criticisms involving racism, but there is still racism, and it's still valid to use in some situations.

 

[Magic Man]

Perhaps my thinking is too subtle for you. You have to know a lot about Islam to appreciate my comments.

In other words, you don't have a response. But at least you were able to undeservedly stroke your own ego, so you got something out of the exchange.

 

[YmirGF]

In other words, you don't have a response. But at least you were able to undeservedly stroke your own ego, so you got something out of the exchange.

Hardly, friend. It's just difficult where to begin responding to monumental piles of steaming codswallop.

 

[Rival]

Also, I'd love to know...

Hypothetically, according to some, we cannot know what Islam teaches because it is all 'interpretation of one's own'.

So, when there is a terror attack, or cartoonists being killed for drawings, what right does anyone have to say,

"IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM!"
"Islam doesn't teach violence!"

How would he know?
How does anyone know anything at all about Islam?

Oh my God

 

[YmirGF]

Also, I'd love to know...

Hypothetically, according to some, we cannot know what Islam teaches because it is all 'interpretation of one's own'.

So, when there is a terror attack, or cartoonists being killed for drawings, what right does anyone have to say,

"IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM!"
"Islam doesn't teach violence!"

How would he know?
How does anyone know anything about Islam?

Oh my God

I've only studied the subject exhaustively, almost obsessively, since Sept. 11, 2001, so I am still new to the whole Islam thingy.
Still, I rather like the new term Islamophobeophobe. It's almost poetic justice.

 

[YmirGF]

In other words, you don't have a response.

You do understand that the President of Turkey is an Islamist nutjob, right? This is your "moderate" Muslim? Seriously?

 

[Augustus]

I'm not going to get into those specific comments, as it's not important here. As you say, many of the comments were indeed bigoted. In other words, your sarcastic response at the end is indeed true in a non-sarcastic way, if a bit hyperbolic. Just because some people go overboard with something doesn't invalidate the something to begin with. Some people go overboard with criticisms involving racism, but there is still racism, and it's still valid to use in some situations.

Racism is used incorrectly in many cases, but it is still much clearer what constitutes racism than it is Islamophobia, as Islam is such a diverse set of beliefs that are held by a billion diverse people.

It also relates to a belief system rather than actual people (or it would be Muslimophobia, which would actually be a marginally better word).

The word has also become highly politicised by pro and anti-Islam partizans who use it to either stifle legitimate criticism or to hide behind the words ambiguity to obscure simple bigotry.

The only reason to use a word is because you believe that it the best word you can use in that situation to convey your message clearly and accurately. I don't think that there is any situation that the word Islamophobia, could not be replaced with a more accurate combination of words that better explains the point and reduces the potential for spin or obfuscation.

 

[Magic Man]

Hardly, friend. It's just difficult where to begin responding to monumental piles of steaming codswallop.

I know. I've dealt with your posts a lot over the years...friend.

 

[Magic Man]

Also, I'd love to know...

Hypothetically, according to some, we cannot know what Islam teaches because it is all 'interpretation of one's own'.

So, when there is a terror attack, or cartoonists being killed for drawings, what right does anyone have to say,

"IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM!"
"Islam doesn't teach violence!"

How would he know?
How does anyone know anything at all about Islam?

Oh my God

Except that that's not what's being said by people like me. What we're saying is that that is only the version of Islam of a small minority of the overall religion.

The best way to know things about Islam is to study it. That includes reading the Koran, as well as doing research on Muslims and their beliefs, and ideally their history.

 

[Magic Man]

Racism is used incorrectly in many cases, but it is still much clearer what constitutes racism than it is Islamophobia, as Islam is such a diverse set of beliefs that are held by a billion diverse people.

It also relates to a belief system rather than actual people (or it would be Muslimophobia, which would actually be a marginally better word).

The word has also become highly politicised by pro and anti-Islam partizans who use it to either stifle legitimate criticism or to hide behind the words ambiguity to obscure simple bigotry.

The only reason to use a word is because you believe that it the best word you can use in that situation to convey your message clearly and accurately. I don't think that there is any situation that the word Islamophobia, could not be replaced with a more accurate combination of words that better explains the point and reduces the potential for spin or obfuscation.

That's fine. I just disagree. I think it serves a useful purpose, even if it's not perfect. Racism is also highly politicized by racists and anti-racists who use it to either stifle legitimate criticism or to hide behind the word's ambiguity to obscure simple bigotry.

 

[YmirGF]

I know. I've dealt with your posts a lot over the years...friend.

And yet, you've never struck me as being someone who is particularly knowledgeable about Islam. Odd, eh?

 

[Rival]

The best way to know things about Islam is to study it. That includes reading the Koran, as well as doing research on Muslims and their beliefs, and ideally their history.

But how can we study it if people like you are telling us that it is only our interpretation of what we are studying and we can't be sure of anything? How would we know we'd learnt anything about Islam at all?

People like me are saying :YES! That is EXACTLY what folks need to do.Read the sources! But when we come across something like "kill apostates", then someone rushes up and calls us "Islamophobes" and that we must be reading the text wrong!

 

[Magic Man]

And yet, you've never struck me as being someone who is particularly knowledgeable about Islam. Odd, eh?

Not at all. People who are content, even confident, in their ignorance on a subject often view others who are more knowledgeable on it than them as "not particularly knowledgeable".

 

[Magic Man]

But how can we study it if people like you are telling us that it is only our interpretation of what we are studying and we can't be sure of anything? How would we know we'd learnt anything about Islam at all?

People like me are saying :YES! That is EXACTLY what folks need to do.Read the sources! But when we come across something like "kill apostates", then someone rushes up and calls us "Islamophobes" and that we must be reading the text wrong!

You're still misunderstanding. You can study it by reading the source material, as well as reading about its history and views in the current world. Just reading the Koran with no context will get you a poor understanding of it. And you're not an Islamophobe for bringing up parts of the Koran that talk about killing apostates. You're only an Islamophobe if you then criticize the religion for that, even if a majority of its adherents don't support that interpretation.

 

[Rival]

You're still misunderstanding. You can study it by reading the source material, as well as reading about its history and views in the current world. Just reading the Koran with no context will get you a poor understanding of it. And you're not an Islamophobe for bringing up parts of the Koran that talk about killing apostates. You're only an Islamophobe if you then criticize the religion for that, even if a majority of its adherents don't support that interpretation.

So in other words I'm not allowed to criticise the Religion ever? Why not? When folks criticise Xianity they are NOT called Christianophobes!

You have just proven our point that 'Islamophobia' is a word used to STOP CRITICISM OF ISLAM!

Of course we need to read the Qur'an in context, who wouldn't? Just the same as we need to read the Gospels in context. That is a non-issue.

I think I'm done here.

 

[YmirGF]

Not at all. People who are content, even confident, in their ignorance on a subject often view others who are more knowledgeable on it than them as "not particularly knowledgeable".

Strangely, I've not encountered that. Do you run into this sort of thing all the time? Your answer could be most instructive.