What is Islamophobia?

[YmirGF]

So in other words I'm not allowed to criticise the Religion ever? Why not? When folks criticise Xianity they are NOT called Christianophobes!

You have just proven our point that 'Islamophobia' is a word used to STOP CRITICISM OF ISLAM!

Of course we need to read the Qur'an in context, who wouldn't? Just the same as we need to read the Gospels in context. That is a non-issue.

I think I'm done here.

Well, to be fair, they don't have a lot to work with so one must spin things just so in order for it to roll.

 

[Rival]

And just so you know, killing of apostates is in a Sahih Hadith and is not merely an 'interpretation' for crying out loud.


Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for, the Prophet said 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'


— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260


A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.


— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

 

[YmirGF]

And just so you know, killing of apostates is in a Sahih Hadith and is not merely an 'interpretation' for crying out loud.


Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for, the Prophet said 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'


— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260


A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.


— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

I've also read some Muslims rationalized this killing as being a form of mercy killing. The heretic was an affront to Allah and they were cutting short the person's ability to stain their souls with more atrocities against Allah - hence killing was seen as an act of kindness. In a perverse way, it does make sense.

 

[Magic Man]

So in other words I'm not allowed to criticise the Religion ever? Why not? When folks criticise Xianity they are NOT called Christianophobes!

Of course you're allowed to criticize the religion. Generally people aren't called Christianophobes because of a couple factors:

1) There isn't nearly as much irrational criticism of Christianity. Most people in the west are more familiar with the religion, so they criticize it more accurately.

2) The uncommon times there is similarly irrational criticism of Christianity, it doesn't lead to the same widespread animus as there is with Islam, and we don't see the same sort of reaction against Christianity as we do against Islam. The dynamic has a lot to do with the sizes of the groups. In the west, Muslims are the small minority, whereas Christians are the majority.

You have just proven our point that 'Islamophobia' is a word used to STOP CRITICISM OF ISLAM!

Almost. Yet again, it's a word used to deter irrational criticism of Islam.

 

[Magic Man]

Strangely, I've not encountered that. Do you run into this sort of thing all the time? Your answer could be most instructive.

Oh, yes, I run into it a lot when dealing with you, although I've dealt with others who are so pleased with themselves, they take their ignorance on a topic as gospel, painting those who challenge them as "not very knowledgeable" or something similar.

 

[Rival]

Of course you're allowed to criticize the religion. Generally people aren't called Christianophobes because of a couple factors:

1) There isn't nearly as much irrational criticism of Christianity. Most people in the west are more familiar with the religion, so they criticize it more accurately.

2) The uncommon times there is similarly irrational criticism of Christianity, it doesn't lead to the same widespread animus as there is with Islam, and we don't see the same sort of reaction against Christianity as we do against Islam. The dynamic has a lot to do with the sizes of the groups. In the west, Muslims are the small minority, whereas Christians are the majority.



Almost. Yet again, it's a word used to deter irrational criticism of Islam.

Hold it!

You said:

"And you're not an Islamophobe for bringing up parts of the Koran that talk about killing apostates. You're only an Islamophobe if you then criticize the religion for that,"

There you go. No more argument.

 

[Magic Man]

And just so you know, killing of apostates is in a Sahih Hadith and is not merely an 'interpretation' for crying out loud.


Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for, the Prophet said 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'


— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260


A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.


— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271

Yup, just like the Bible says to kill homosexuals. Amazingly enough you see almost no support for that. Funny how that works, huh? When you try to criticize Islam by taking verses like this at face value, you ignore the fact that Islam is not just the face-value interpretations of its verses. It's the interpretations followed by its members.

 

[Magic Man]

Hold it!

You said:

"And you're not an Islamophobe for bringing up parts of the Koran that talk about killing apostates. You're only an Islamophobe if you then criticize the religion for that,"

There you go. No more argument.

Correct. The religion is not your interpretation of a holy book. The religion is what is followed by its adherents. I'm glad we're agreed, so that there's no more argument.

 

[Rival]

Yup, just like the Bible says to kill homosexuals. Amazingly enough you see almost no support for that. Funny how that works, huh? When you try to criticize Islam by taking verses like this at face value, you ignore the fact that Islam is not just the face-value interpretations of its verses. It's the interpretations followed by its members.

I am not a Christian. Nor am I a Jew. Yes, that is exactly what Ha-Torah says. And yes, that is exactly what it means.

 

[Rival]

Correct. The religion is not your interpretation of a holy book. The religion is what is followed by its adherents. I'm glad we're agreed, so that there's no more argument.

NO! A religion is what its TEXTS say. Otherwise there would be no Religion. What a convenient way of side lining the Qur'an!

 

[YmirGF]

Oh, yes, I run into it a lot when dealing with you, although I've dealt with others who are so pleased with themselves, they take their ignorance on a topic as gospel, painting those who challenge them as "not very knowledgeable" or something similar.

Fascinating. I wonder why you encounter things like this? How terribly interesting.

To be honest though, I've rarely seen you write in Islamic/Muslim threads, let alone make any meaningful comments in the discussions. If you are so knowledgeable you certainly know how to hide it.

However entertaining, this is all getting rather far off topic.

So, if I am reading you right, it is perfectly acceptable to laud the good things Muslims believe in and ascribe it to the whole of Islam, but it is unacceptable to select the naughty bits a good many Muslims believe and draw a line back to the doctrinal texts of the Qur'an. Is that accurate from your esteemed point of view?

 

[LuisDantas]

NO! A religion is what its TEXTS say. Otherwise there would be no Religion. What a convenient way of side lining the Qur'an!

Excuse me? Religion isn't and can't even conceivably be anything worth of notice if it is limited by immutable texts.

It is the understanding, actions and inspiration of adherents that can make religion at all worthwhile. Nothing else.

 

[Magic Man]

I am not a Christian. Nor am I a Jew. Yes, that is exactly what Ha-Torah says. And yes, that is exactly what it means.

Well, I'm glad you're such an expert. You and Ymir fit in well together.

 

[Rival]

If all Muslims suddenly decided to start eating blood and bacon, would that make it acceptable within the Religion? No! Because the Qur'an prohibits it. If you then say, yes it does make it acceptable in the Faith, then what use is the Qur'an to the faith?

This wall is starting to hurt my head.

 

[Magic Man]

NO! A religion is what its TEXTS say. Otherwise there would be no Religion. What a convenient way of side lining the Qur'an!

As Luis said, a religion is certainly not just what its texts say. The most important thing about religion is what its adherents believe.

 

[Magic Man]

If all Muslims suddenly decided to start eating blood and bacon, would that make it acceptable within the Religion? No! Because the Qur'an prohibits it. If you then say, yes it does make it acceptable in the Faith, then what use is the Qur'an to the faith?

Suddenly? That's not how religion works. Things happen gradually.

This wall is starting to hurt my head.

Then stop, listen and think for a few minutes, rather than just reacting instinctively.

 

[YmirGF]

As Luis said, a religion is certainly not just what its texts say. The most important thing about religion is what its adherents believe.

Hence we run smack into the schools of Islamic thought.

 

[Rival]

As Luis said, a religion is certainly not just what its texts say. The most important thing about religion is what its adherents believe.

Perhaps I was too extreme. In Religions with a Holy Book, it should be based on what the texts say, or else there is no need for the texts at all. But that does not mean you get to cherry-pick from the texts and re-interpret it at all to suit your convenience.

 

[Rival]

Suddenly? That's not how religion works. Things happen gradually.



Then stop, listen and think for a few minutes, rather than just reacting instinctively.

Oh, so if Muslims gradually start eating bacon rather than just all at once, that makes it all right? Qur'an says no.

 

[Rival]

You might want to look up Bid'ah.