What is Islamophobia?

[nazz]

Who are the Islamophobes who denied that took place?

The ones who say there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

 

[nazz]

​

Let me guess. You think these people represent all Muslims, right?

 

[Rival]

I don't know where you live, Nazz, or if you are under a rock somewhere, but yes: in the UK and France this is all too common behaviour from a lot of them.

 

[Augustus]

The ones who say there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

Many Muslims would deny that there is such a thing as a moderate Muslim and find the term almost insulting...

 

[YmirGF]

The ones who say there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim

People like the President of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan?

"It is unacceptable for us to agree with such a definition. Turkey has never been a country to represent such a concept. Moreover, Islam cannot be classified as moderate or not,"


I guess he just doesn't get it, eh?

 

[Rival]

 

[Augustus]

People like the President of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan?

"It is unacceptable for us to agree with such a definition. Turkey has never been a country to represent such a concept. Moreover, Islam cannot be classified as moderate or not,"


I guess he just doesn't get it, eh?

A flagrant Islamophobe imo

 

[YmirGF]

Let me guess. You think these people represent all Muslims, right?

I think the canard being advanced is that people mean "all" or "every" Muslim. Clearly, that is not the case, in the vast majority of examples. You pretend to have your finger on the pulse of America, but is it not possible that you are seeing your own confirmation bias? Are you perhaps an Islamophobeophobe?

 

[Magic Man]

I see what you're saying, but this is not what I'm talking about. I wouldn't say either of those. I'd say:

Islam supports the subjugation of women.

Not referencing someONE but someTHING, i.e what the Religion itself actually teaches, not what Muslims do.

Then that's invalid, since Islam doesn't teach anything, Muslims do. It all depends on the interpretation.

 

[Magic Man]

What is "irrational criticism of Islam" ? Examples?

Islam seeks to kill infidels and take over the world.
Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.
Islam hates the west.

 

[Rival]

Then that's invalid, since Islam doesn't teach anything, Muslims do. It all depends on the interpretation.

Where do you think the Muslims get it from? It wouldn't be their Holy Books would it? That is what we mean by Islam. What the Holy Books of that Faith teach, not what individual Muslims do of their own accord.

 

[Rival]

Even if no-one at all were practicing the Religion, i.e, no Muslims in the world, we could still criticise its teachings and dogmas, what its texts say and advocate, theology, dogma, teachings, rituals etc.

 

[Magic Man]

People like the President of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan?

"It is unacceptable for us to agree with such a definition. Turkey has never been a country to represent such a concept. Moreover, Islam cannot be classified as moderate or not,"


I guess he just doesn't get it, eh?

I think you and Rival are misunderstanding what he's saying. He's agreeing with us. He's not saying there is no moderate Islam. He's saying all Islam is moderate. In your quote, he doesn't say "Islam cannot be classified as moderate". The "or not" is the key to the whole meaning. He's saying Islam is Islam; not moderate, not extremist, just Islam.

If you want to get a fuller picture of his stance, this article was pretty interesting:

Turkish President Erdoğan urges Muslim countries to warn West against Islamophobia - POLITICS

 

[Magic Man]

Where do you think the Muslims get it from? It wouldn't be their Holy Books would it? That is what we mean by Islam. What the Holy Books of that Faith teach, not what individual Muslims do of their own accord.

And how do you decide what they teach? You say it teaches something, and that's what goes, even if the majority of Muslims disagree with you? As an atheist, I'm as against the Koran and Bible as anyone, but let's be real here. People have vastly different interpretations of both books, so saying either of them "teach this", when it's something other than that Allah is great or Muhammed is the prophet or something similarly broad and definitive, is invalid.

 

[Rival]

And how do you decide what they teach? You say it teaches something, and that's what goes, even if the majority of Muslims disagree with you? As an atheist, I'm as against the Koran and Bible as anyone, but let's be real here. People have vastly different interpretations of both books, so saying either of them "teach this", when it's something other than that Allah is great or Muhammed is the prophet or something similarly broad and definitive, is invalid.

I'm becoming sick of this, so if you reply to me and I don't respond it's because I feel I'm legitimately wasting my time.

Some things can generally only be understood one way.

"You shall not murder."

I'd say that's pretty clear cut.

Your response makes it sound as if we are not capable of reading the texts for ourselves and understanding them. This is blatantly false. It could go for any book on the planet. Also, most Muslim communities seem to be pretty standard on the things we like to complain about, such as killing apostates, subjugating women, repressing atheists and homosexuals. They all seem to be interpreting their Scriptures in the same way. I don't see massive diversity in the way they respond to their texts. Countries Like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and so on all seem to be in agreement on issues like this. Why? Because of what their texts say.

In fact the only place where Muslims differ radically is in the West, where they have been brought up with Western Values, in-spite of Islam. One of the reasons there are 'so many interpretations' of the Qur'an is Westernised Muslims trying to bring their Holy Book in line with Western values. And as someone who's actually read that book knows: it cannot be done. It HAS to be twisted all out of shape.

 

[Magic Man]

Your response makes it sound as if we are not capable of reading the texts for ourselves and understanding them. This is blatantly false.

No, it's mostly true. You can read the book and understand it from your perspective, but that may or may not be similar to the perspective of Muslims. They may understand things in a different way, especially if you're reading a translation of it and they're not. When talking about books this old and this debated, it's not as simple as reading them as if they're the latest best-selling novel.

 

[Rival]

No, it's mostly true. You can read the book and understand it from your perspective, but that may or may not be similar to the perspective of Muslims. They may understand things in a different way, especially if you're reading a translation of it and they're not. When talking about books this old and this debated, it's not as simple as reading them as if they're the latest best-selling novel.

I'm currently reading Plato's 'The Republic', which is about 900 years older than the Qur'an, originally written in Ancient Greek, and I don't need someone sat next to me interpreting it for me. All I need is knowledge of Ancient Greek culture. Which I can also research for myself.

 

[YmirGF]

I think you and Rival are misunderstanding what he's saying. He's agreeing with us. He's not saying there is no moderate Islam. He's saying all Islam is moderate. In your quote, he doesn't say "Islam cannot be classified as moderate". The "or not" is the key to the whole meaning. He's saying Islam is Islam; not moderate, not extremist, just Islam.

I am misunderstanding nothing. In all fairness, to say that all Islam is moderate is about as asinine as it is possible to get.

If you want to get a fuller picture of his stance, this article was pretty interesting:

Turkish President Erdoğan urges Muslim countries to warn West against Islamophobia - POLITICS

This is the same man who said that if the European Union does not accept Turkey into the European Union without any further preconditions it is because they are Islamophobic. Indeed, it's difficult to get much more moderate than that.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm currently reading Plato's 'The Republic', which is about 900 years older than the Qur'an, originally written in Ancient Greek, and I don't need someone sat next to me interpreting it for me. All I need is knowledge of Ancient Greek culture. Which I can also research for myself.

1) That's also quite a bit different from the Bible and Koran. For one thing, it's written by one person, and written by that person himself. It didn't come out after he was dead, and there was no need to decide on a definitive version.
2) You still might have a different interpretation of that than others.
3) In both cases, as you say, you can research the culture from which the book was written, and that can give you an informed opinion of what it's saying. However, that's not a book that people are using to guide their daily lives centuries after it was written.

 

[YmirGF]

And how do you decide what they teach? You say it teaches something, and that's what goes, even if the majority of Muslims disagree with you? As an atheist, I'm as against the Koran and Bible as anyone, but let's be real here. People have vastly different interpretations of both books, so saying either of them "teach this", when it's something other than that Allah is great or Muhammed is the prophet or something similarly broad and definitive, is invalid.

So, Islam as a complete way of life teaches the individual nothing. Okie dokie.