What is Islamophobia?

[Augustus]

Then the way to phrase that would be "most Muslims believe..."

Most Muslims believe that practicing homosexuals are immoral people who should be denied equal rights, if not actually punished for their personal preferences. Do you think a homosexual who wishes to be treated as an equal member of society can be considered Islamophobic, which must entail an irrational fear of Islam? The more Islamic a society, the less likely a homosexual is to be treated fairly, therefore they would be right in fearing Islam, no?

 

[nazz]

And if that's how it was treated today, I'd feel differently about it! If Muslims couched it as "advanced for its day, and with a few useful ideas for modern society", that would be one thing.

But you must remember that it is viewed as final, perfect, timeless and unalterable.

Understood. It's definitely repressive but I still would not label it "mysogynistic" which means "women hating". I thought you were the one who was so concerned about correct labels?

 

[nazz]

Most Muslims believe that practicing homosexuals are immoral people who should be denied equal rights, if not actually punished for their personal preferences. Do you think a homosexual who wishes to be treated as an equal member of society can be considered Islamophobic, which must entail an irrational fear of Islam? The more Islamic a society, the less likely a homosexual is to be treated fairly, therefore they would be right in fearing Islam, no?

You think some of those very same homosexuals don;t consider themselves Muslims? should they fear themselves?

 

[Augustus]

You think some of those very same homosexuals don;t consider themselves Muslims? should they fear themselves?

I know several homosexuals who are also Muslim. They certainly are not in favour of an increasing Islamification of my country.

Answer the question though, can a practicing homosexual ever be considered Islamophobic, given that most Muslims wish to, at best, deny them equal rights?

 

[icehorse]

Understood. It's definitely repressive but I still would not label it "mysogynistic" which means "women hating". I thought you were the one who was so concerned about correct labels?

Would you agree that the Quran is "sexist"? I would agree that there is a spectrum between sexism and misogyny. I suppose that based on interpretation and cultural background, one person's sexism might be another's misogyny. But for the sake of this discussion, I'd be happy to say that Islam is merely extremely sexist, and I'll reiterate that I would not want my daughters to live under Sharia.

 

[gsa]

So the way I am hearing it, Islam, as such, does not exist. Yet strangely Islamophobia exists. So which is it? If Islam is meaningless, so is Islamophobia.

 

[Augustus]

So the way I am hearing it, Islam, as such, does not exist. Yet strangely Islamophobia exists. So which is it? If Islam is meaningless, so is Islamophobia.

There are legitimate criticism of the beliefs of some Muslims but some people criticise some Muslims unfairly. Some people criticise some beliefs legitimately while at the same time criticising some Muslims illegitimately.

Still can't understand why anyone thinks a broad and ill defined label such as Islamophobia is preferable to a precise description of the specific points that people are being unfair about and an explanation of why these are wrong.

 

[Rival]

I still can't understand why people think we're hell-bent on attacking Muslims personally, instead of what we're really doing: legitimately criticising their Religion. When folks 'search for the historical Jesus' or 'find contradictions on the bible' 'the violent entry of Joshua into Canaan' &c., no-one accuses them of "Christianophobia", but the minute we bring up the Qur'an, Mohammad's many wives, his child bride, the Jews of Khaibar being beheaded, silencing of poets and so on, we're all "Islamophobes."

 

[gsa]

According to Islamophobes these people do not exist:

Pakistani Muslims Form Human Chain To Protect Christians During Mass (PHOTOS)

Who are the Islamophobes who denied that took place?

There are far more people, I would submit, who deny that Islam had anything to do with why a human chain protecting Christians at worship is necessary in the first place.

There are legitimate criticism of the beliefs of some Muslims but some people criticise some Muslims unfairly. Some people criticise some beliefs legitimately while at the same time criticising some Muslims illegitimately.

Still can't understand why anyone thinks a broad and ill defined label such as Islamophobia is preferable to a precise description of the specific points that people are being unfair about and an explanation of why these are wrong.

Because it deters legitimate criticism of Islam.

The analogy to restraints on speech is apt. Let's say that I deem certain speech "blasphemous." Now there is speech that will clearly be blasphemous, but there is also "midrange" speech that is not clearly blasphemous. But a prohibition on blasphemous speech, given how vague the prohibition is, will necessarily encompass speech that is not blasphemous.

"Islamophobia" works the same way, just at the level of social stigma.

 

[Magic Man]

That is part of it. Another part, although I can tell that you and nazz just don't want to accept it, is that Islam is purposefully built as receptive to fanaticism.

Religion is built as receptive to fanaticism. However, Islam was very progressive centuries ago. The Middle East was the place of enlightenment where things like math and science were encouraged. Islam is not incompatible with a progressive worldview, just as Christianity isn't. Right now, Islam is being used by groups and dictators to further their power ambitions, and so there is a "Islam vs. the west battle" happening, even though, Islam is as compatible with the west as Christianity is.

 

[Magic Man]

I still can't understand why people think we're hell-bent on attacking Muslims personally, instead of what we're really doing: legitimately criticising their Religion. When folks 'search for the historical Jesus' or 'find contradictions on the bible' 'the violent entry of Joshua into Canaan' &c., no-one accuses them of "Christianophobia", but the minute we bring up the Qur'an, Mohammad's many wives, his child bride, the Jews of Khaibar being beheaded, silencing of poets and so on, we're all "Islamophobes."

Again, this is where the confusion comes in. You can criticize Islam. It certainly has its faults. You're only accused of Islamophobia if you go too far with your criticism.

"Muslims tend to support subjugation of women" = valid criticism of Muslims
"Muslims want to kill infidels" = invalid criticism of Muslims

 

[Magic Man]

There are legitimate criticism of the beliefs of some Muslims but some people criticise some Muslims unfairly. Some people criticise some beliefs legitimately while at the same time criticising some Muslims illegitimately.

Still can't understand why anyone thinks a broad and ill defined label such as Islamophobia is preferable to a precise description of the specific points that people are being unfair about and an explanation of why these are wrong.

Your first paragraph answers your second one That's why "Islamophobia" is a useful term.

 

[Magic Man]

Because it deters legitimate criticism of Islam.

Nope, because it's a useful term to describe irrational criticism of Islam or Muslims, but nice try.

 

[Rival]

Again, this is where the confusion comes in. You can criticize Islam. It certainly has its faults. You're only accused of Islamophobia if you go too far with your criticism.

"Muslims tend to support subjugation of women" = valid criticism of Muslims
"Muslims want to kill infidels" = invalid criticism of Muslims

I see what you're saying, but this is not what I'm talking about. I wouldn't say either of those. I'd say:

Islam supports the subjugation of women.

Not referencing someONE but someTHING, i.e what the Religion itself actually teaches, not what Muslims do.

 

[gsa]

Nope, because it's a useful term to describe irrational criticism of Islam or Muslims, but nice try.

According to the hadiths regarded as authentic by most Sunnis, Muhammed had sex with a 9 year old girl. Is criticism of this child marriage and child sex Islamophobic? Is it Islamophobic if you point out how Muhammed's example is used to justify child marriages in Islamic countries today?

 

[Rival]

What is "irrational criticism of Islam" ? Examples?

 

[nazz]

I know several homosexuals who are also Muslim. They certainly are not in favour of an increasing Islamification of my country.

Answer the question though, can a practicing homosexual ever be considered Islamophobic, given that most Muslims wish to, at best, deny them equal rights?

Of course a homosexual can be Islamophobic just like anyone else can be. But living in fear for your life because you live under a regime that puts homosexuals to death is not Islamophobia.

 

[Martellus]

​

 

[nazz]

Would you agree that the Quran is "sexist"? I would agree that there is a spectrum between sexism and misogyny. I suppose that based on interpretation and cultural background, one person's sexism might be another's misogyny. But for the sake of this discussion, I'd be happy to say that Islam is merely extremely sexist, and I'll reiterate that I would not want my daughters to live under Sharia.

The way women are treated in many Muslim countries based on Sharia is repressive. That is what I will agree with.

 

[nazz]

So the way I am hearing it, Islam, as such, does not exist. Yet strangely Islamophobia exists. So which is it? If Islam is meaningless, so is Islamophobia.

Now you are being ridiculous. No one said Islam does not exist but just that it is a diversified set of ideas.