Do you honestly see the current forms of Islam and Christianity as comparable? Can you imagine a whole self-declared "Christian Nation" releasing videos of punishment of unbelievers, for instance?
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What is Islamophobia?
- Thread starter gsa
- Start date
Do you honestly see the current forms of Islam and Christianity as comparable? Can you imagine a whole self-declared "Christian Nation" releasing videos of punishment of unbelievers, for instance?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I'm saying that unless it's at least a large majority, saying "Muslims" or "Islam" isn't accurate. It's true that a sizable group of Muslims believe in death to apostates, but a sizable group also doesn't . The interesting par is that if you look at the poll, a lot of the same countries that have high support for death to apostates also have high support for freedom of religion. That indicates there's a little more nuance to the issue.
You can and should challenge these bad ideas that some Muslims have. Just don't imply all of Islam of Muslims are responsible.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Yes, there are times you can say "Islam teaches", but they are much more limited than what a lot of people think.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
This is another place the confusion comes in. There are Christian groups not that different from ISIS, even if they're not on the same organized level. There is the Lord's Resistance Army and Kony, and there are cases like this:
Tens of thousands of Muslims flee Christian militias in Central African Republic - The Washington Post
It's no coincidence most or all of this activity is happening in the Middle East and Arica. The implication is that it's not about religion, but about culture and economic status, with religion as an easy dividing force.
You just hear more about the Muslim extremists because they are trying to **** off the west, and it makes for a better story. And honestly, there's probably more of it, but it's far from exclusive to them.
Hi, Magic Man.
You recently asked
Fair question. But this exchange goes back a fair while, so allow me to quote a few posts that (I hope) will prove useful in reminding us all of what is the subject matter exactly.
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Post #98
Post #164
Post #177
Post #183
Post #187
Post #199
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Your question in #199 is a very good one, among other reasons because it is one we have been trying to address as well. Why do we have to keep hoping for the existence of complex and difficult answers when it is so explicit in the Quraan and in the behavior and statements of Muslims both that the reality is far simpler?
The statements about punishing apostasy and unbelievers who refuse to convert (or pay a specific tax) while living under a Muslim rule are of clear enough existence. All the controversy is about whether and how they apply and should be interpreted, if at all.
The simple answer would be that it is because Islam is exactly what it appears to be: a religion of supremacism that has bits and pieces of incongruous appeals to fairness and respect to differences of opinion.
Yet there are many who see the choice to accept such a simple answer as "Islamophobic", and to the best of my understanding that is as well-meaning as it is ultimately misguided.
While I sure do hope for Muslims to reject their own legacy of supremacism (which is hard-coded in the Quraan itself, unfortunately) it is still true that it is a very rare and unusual Muslim who does not insist that the authority of the Quraan is supreme and that it is not really his place to propose that some parts should be disregarded as no longer adequate. To the extent that Muslims allow themselves such an attitude, it is only by way of recourse to scholars of some sort of another that end up being all too easy to disregard.
A very similar situation exists in Christianity and even in Judaism, of course. But that only underscores how notable it is that so many violent acts end up claiming Islamic guidance. That is all the evidence I personally need for the existence of a sore lack of appropriate, badly-needed mechanisms of internal questioning and renewal of doctrine in the Muslim World. To a degree (perhaps an unworkable degree) that may be actually unsolvable, because the Quraan does promise itself to be unchangeable, infalible, and assurance enough of means to reach harmony with God's Will.
Maybe the way I am perceiving those things is still too innacurate. But if it is, then surely a better argument should be presented than just variations of "most Muslims know better".
You recently asked
Fair question. But this exchange goes back a fair while, so allow me to quote a few posts that (I hope) will prove useful in reminding us all of what is the subject matter exactly.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post #98
Post #164
Post #177
Post #183
Post #187
Post #199
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your question in #199 is a very good one, among other reasons because it is one we have been trying to address as well. Why do we have to keep hoping for the existence of complex and difficult answers when it is so explicit in the Quraan and in the behavior and statements of Muslims both that the reality is far simpler?
The statements about punishing apostasy and unbelievers who refuse to convert (or pay a specific tax) while living under a Muslim rule are of clear enough existence. All the controversy is about whether and how they apply and should be interpreted, if at all.
The simple answer would be that it is because Islam is exactly what it appears to be: a religion of supremacism that has bits and pieces of incongruous appeals to fairness and respect to differences of opinion.
Yet there are many who see the choice to accept such a simple answer as "Islamophobic", and to the best of my understanding that is as well-meaning as it is ultimately misguided.
While I sure do hope for Muslims to reject their own legacy of supremacism (which is hard-coded in the Quraan itself, unfortunately) it is still true that it is a very rare and unusual Muslim who does not insist that the authority of the Quraan is supreme and that it is not really his place to propose that some parts should be disregarded as no longer adequate. To the extent that Muslims allow themselves such an attitude, it is only by way of recourse to scholars of some sort of another that end up being all too easy to disregard.
A very similar situation exists in Christianity and even in Judaism, of course. But that only underscores how notable it is that so many violent acts end up claiming Islamic guidance. That is all the evidence I personally need for the existence of a sore lack of appropriate, badly-needed mechanisms of internal questioning and renewal of doctrine in the Muslim World. To a degree (perhaps an unworkable degree) that may be actually unsolvable, because the Quraan does promise itself to be unchangeable, infalible, and assurance enough of means to reach harmony with God's Will.
Maybe the way I am perceiving those things is still too innacurate. But if it is, then surely a better argument should be presented than just variations of "most Muslims know better".
Would you have some examples of common, preferably significant misconceptions about what Islam teaches or falls short of?
More accurately, the implications seems to be that violent conflict rarely arises without cultural and economical motivators, and that I agree with. Religion is still however a significant factor, and it is all too legitimate to question the validity of its ideas and the safety of those who deal with believers.
And because they make more of a point of being visible, what with the distribution of videos of their own accord and the appeals for people of other nations to support them for the glory of Allah.
That, and there are simply so many more of them, and so better accepted by their social and religious environments.
No one is claiming that it is exclusive, though. We are claiming worry about the apparent lack of perspective for correcting the situation. And. yes. that the situations are not quite comparable, among other reasons because ISIS' growth seems to be a lot more worrisome than that of the groups you mention here.
Quite simply, they are not likely to receive any significant foreign support or adherents, nor are claims that they must by lying about being Christian likely to arise.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
We don't have to keep hoping for difficult answers. The answers are difficult. That's the fact of the matter. You can go with the simple "Islam sucks" answer, but that's not going to address the real problem. The real problem is things like poverty, education and general culture. That's why you see so much of this in these particular regions and not much anywhere else.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Which goes right back to the religion itself, as Muslims are told that they are the rightful rulers of the world under Allah. Given how far they have fallen, the motivations to correct this go well beyond the political and socioeconomic. The real question is should we help them to achieve economic stability in order for them to expand the influence of the supremacist replacement theology?
That is part of it. Another part, although I can tell that you and nazz just don't want to accept it, is that Islam is purposefully built as receptive to fanaticism.
Here you're generalizing, and for my money it's an important, meaningful generalization. Look at the list of Muslim majority countries. With a few exceptions (mostly having to do with winning the natural resources lottery), these countries are far behind economically and educationally. Is this just another coincidence? Or could it be that if you're brought up indoctrinated with intolerance towards most of the people on the planet, including the females in your own society, you tend not to flourish?
Please remember, these countries span a large range of climates and cultures.
And finally, speaking personally, all of this evidence makes me hate Islam, because I have empathy for the hundreds of millions of people born into this misogynistic, totalitarian ideology.
Magic man and nazz,
When you read the Quran, did you not find it to be the way I'm characterizing it?
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nazz
Doubting Thomas
Then the way to phrase that would be "most Muslims believe..."
nazz
Doubting Thomas
What religion is not?
nazz
Doubting Thomas
No, I don't.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
According to Islamophobes these people do not exist:
Pakistani Muslims Form Human Chain To Protect Christians During Mass (PHOTOS)
Pakistani Muslims Form Human Chain To Protect Christians During Mass (PHOTOS)
Most others, as a matter of fact.
Ok, so for example, you're saying that as you read the Quran, you didn't find it to be misogynistic? Wow, I sure did! I absolutely would not want my daughters to have to live under Sharia.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
history says otherwise
nazz
Doubting Thomas
For the time period it was quite advanced in its attitude towards women.
And if that's how it was treated today, I'd feel differently about it! If Muslims couched it as "advanced for its day, and with a few useful ideas for modern society", that would be one thing.
But you must remember that it is viewed as final, perfect, timeless and unalterable.