What is Islamophobia?

[nazz]

So call me anti-Muslim. It would be a cheap shot and incorrect, but at least it would be a term that conveyed meaning.

You missed my point completely

 

[nazz]

Sure th we are a number of terms available: Rational, logical, clear headed....use any of the three you like, I won't take offense.

Note: I suggested using anti-Muslim, just not Islamophobia.

If you think it is rational to assume that people who oppose anti-Muslim bigotry are opposed to any criticism of Islam you are nuts.

 

[Magic Man]

Another example of why 'Islamophobia' is a stupid word.

Islam is often violent, and millions of Muslims do support death to apostates. Simple fact.

If you say Islam is MOSTLY violent or ALL Muslims support death to apostates then that is obviously wrong, bigoted and stupid to believe. But the word 'Islamophobia' doesn't allow you to make this distinction without excessive additional explanation. It really amazes me that people can't see this.

Honestly, forget about labels like 'Islamophobic' and just explain things as they are. It might take a few more words, but it will be far more accurate and effective.

If someone is being hyperbolic, paranoid or bigoted, point this out and explain why they are being so. There is no situation in which the word Islamophobia could not be replaced by a more accurate and effective combination of other words.

"Islamophobia" is a useful term. It describes a mindset that is prevalent in the world right now. It is not a stupid word.

"Islam" is not often violent, but yes, millions of Muslims do support death to apostates. There's no problem pointing that out, and it's not Islamophobic. What counts as Islamophobia is, as you say, saying "Islam is violent", or "Muslims are violent", or "Islam is like the mafia: it'll kill you for crossing it".

I'll direct you back to the Pew poll that indicates that a significant percentage of Muslims DO agree that apostasy is a crime. Not a majority overall, but a majority in some countries.

This is one of the main problems I have with Islam. It is not simply a religion, it is a totalitarian ideology. If you disagree, I'd ask you to cite a few Muslim majority countries in which religious minorities are not under severe persecution...

The key words there are "not a majority". I specified this already. If it's only a minority, you can't say "Muslims" or "the Islamic world". When you do, you're overgeneralizing.

Your second paragraph is much the same. Your problem isn't with Islam; it's with a harsh culture in some Muslim countries. Blaming a religion that includes 1.5 billion people all over the world, most of whom don't support that kind of thing is problematic and is an example of Islamophobia. It's that kind of thing that leads to retaliation against innocent Muslims, which only makes it easier for groups like ISIS to recruit members. "See? They hate you for being Muslim. Come fight with us."

 

[Magic Man]

That looks like grasping at straws to me. You might as well deny that, say, Americans support literacy with much the same arguments.

That doesn't follow. We're talking about stuff that is only supported by a minority, or at best a small majority.

 

[YmirGF]

That looks like grasping at straws to me. You might as well deny that, say, Americans support literacy with much the same arguments.

I do find it fascinating that one can generalize about Muslims and Islam when it suits them or does not paint either in a less than stellar light. A tiny double-standard at play.

 

[gsa]

"Islamophobia" is a useful term. It describes a mindset that is prevalent in the world right now. It is not a stupid word.

"Islam" is not often violent, but yes, millions of Muslims do support death to apostates. There's no problem pointing that out, and it's not Islamophobic. What counts as Islamophobia is, as you say, saying "Islam is violent", or "Muslims are violent", or "Islam is like the mafia: it'll kill you for crossing it".



The key words there are "not a majority". I specified this already. If it's only a minority, you can't say "Muslims" or "the Islamic world". When you do, you're overgeneralizing.

Your second paragraph is much the same. Your problem isn't with Islam; it's with a harsh culture in some Muslim countries. Blaming a religion that includes 1.5 billion people all over the world, most of whom don't support that kind of thing is problematic and is an example of Islamophobia. It's that kind of thing that leads to retaliation against innocent Muslims, which only makes it easier for groups like ISIS to recruit members. "See? They hate you for being Muslim. Come fight with us."

1. Islam, the religion, teaches death to apostates.

2. Saying Islam is violent is not equivalent to saying Muslims are violent, certainly we can see that most Muslims are not violent.

3. The religion of Islam can't reasonably be separated from Islamic states and cultures.

 

[gsa]

I do find it fascinating that one can generalize about Muslims and Islam when it suits them or does not paint either in a less than stellar light. A tiny double-standard at play.

Right, you can say "Islam is a religion of peace" without any pushback.

 

[Magic Man]

If you think it is rational to assume that people who oppose anti-Muslim bigotry are opposed to any criticism of Islam you are nuts.

Sadly that's how it gets painted, though. Instead of responding to the actual arguments, it becomes "you're just a Muslim apologist who can't stand any criticism of Islam". They say people who speak out against Islamophobia won't criticize Muslims countries for their faults, like the ones who do kill apostates and not let women drive. Of course that's patently false. Those things should be and are called out, but that doesn't mean making sweeping generalizations that aren't accurate.

 

[gsa]

That doesn't follow. We're talking about stuff that is only supported by a minority, or at best a small majority.

Death for apostasy and punishment of blasphemy is a mainstream position in Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

That doesn't follow. We're talking about stuff that is only supported by a minority, or at best a small majority.

but 10% of 1.5 billion human animals still equals 150 Million people. It took, what 20, to do 9/11?

 

[Magic Man]

Right, you can say "Islam is a religion of peace" without any pushback.

Does that claim lead to violence or discrimination?

 

[YmirGF]

Right, you can say "Islam is a religion of peace" without any pushback.

As long as you use the trademark symbol.

 

[gsa]

Does that claim lead to violence or discrimination?

It masks actual violence in the name of Islam.

 

[YmirGF]

Does that claim lead to violence or discrimination?

I think it is just an example of the obscure nature of Muslim humor.

 

[Magic Man]

1. Islam, the religion, teaches death to apostates.

Yup, just as Christianity the religion teaches to kill homosexuals, among other things.

2. Saying Islam is violent is not equivalent to saying Muslims are violent, certainly we can see that most Muslims are not violent.

If you can "certainly" see that, ,then you can "certainly" see that Islam is not violent.

3. The religion of Islam can't reasonably be separated from Islamic states and cultures.

That's simply false.

 

[gsa]

I think it is just an example of the obscure nature of Muslim humor.

Lol

 

[Magic Man]

Death for apostasy and punishment of blasphemy is a mainstream position in Islam.

Whether or not that's true, it's still inaccurate to say Muslims or the Muslims world support those things.

 

[nazz]

1. Islam, the religion, teaches death to apostates.

2. Saying Islam is violent is not equivalent to saying Muslims are violent, certainly we can see that most Muslims are not violent.

3. The religion of Islam can't reasonably be separated from Islamic states and cultures.

"Islam" does not teach anything. Muslims teach things and call it "Islam". And those teachings are not all in agreement just as with any other religion. "Islam" is not violent; some Muslims are. As for #3 there is more to religion than government and culture. According to some Muslims some governments and aspects of culture are not Islamic.

 

[Magic Man]

but 10% of 1.5 billion human animals still equals 150 Million people. It took, what 20, to do 9/11?

Ah, yes, the old "but that's still a lot of people", which completely misses the point. Of course that's still a problem. What we're talking about is whether you can attribute these things to "Islam" or "Muslims".

 

[YmirGF]

Whether or not that's true, it's still inaccurate to say Muslims or the Muslims world support those things.

Let me know if you need another bushel of straw.