What is Islamophobia?

[nazz]

To be fair, I remember the high profile media figure Ann Coulter suggesting that America should nuke Mecca.

Yep, and I know two people on line who agree. Extrapolate that out--number of people I interact with on line compared to total US population--and that is a lot of people.

 

[Augustus]

It's not irrational to fear people who want to kill you. It's irrational to think that because the people who want to kill you identify as Muslims that makes ALL Muslims dangerous.

Im talking hypotheticals here, but if you know that some Muslims want to kill you and you don't know which ones, would you not be wise to fear all Muslims?

 

[nazz]

Im talking hypotheticals here, but if you know that some Muslims want to kill you and you don't know which ones, would you not be wise to fear all Muslims?

That's different than saying every member of a group is dangerous.

 

[Augustus]

That's different than saying every member of a group is dangerous.

If you knew that some people who wear green t-shirts wanted to kill you, would you be afraid of everyone who wore green t-shirts? I know that I would.

Which gets back to how stupid the word Islamophobia is. Most people would agree that Geert Wilders is a bigot, but choosing to use the word Islamophobia just causes completely unnecessary problems.

 

[Sees]

I met a few people in the military who had the type of Islamaphobia nazz is talking about...I think for the most part, almost in its entirety really, it is restricted to the internet and other media where people are more free to exaggerate and hype up things, stir stuff up/troll, etc. Where being excessive is expected and easier to get away with.

Much, much more often I run into people who are passionate that only the candy and kisses face/versions of Islam are true/real rather than Islam and Muslims are evil and need to be taken out. Both online and in real life. They are equally ignorant positions. Super Fluff vs. Absolute Hate.

This is why people don't like the term Islamophobia - because it's a weapon for one of the extreme sides of ignorance and its sympathizers which is used to force normal folks onto the other side.

 

[icehorse]

I think it's difficult to give hard definitions for those terms. What specifically do you want me to address?

Hey nazz,

Earlier in the thread you mentioned "extremists" so I thought it would be useful to understand what you mean, and where you would draw the line between varying degrees of belief. It seemed that in your post you had some different categories in mind?

nazz and Augustus,

I'm curious to know what makes you think Geert Wilders is a bigot and Islamophobe?

 

[nazz]

If you knew that some people who wear green t-shirts wanted to kill you, would you be afraid of everyone who wore green t-shirts? I know that I would.

Which gets back to how stupid the word Islamophobia is. Most people would agree that Geert Wilders is a bigot, but choosing to use the word Islamophobia just causes completely unnecessary problems.

Obviously I disagree

 

[nazz]

Much, much more often I run into people who are passionate that only the candy and kisses face/versions of Islam are true/real rather than Islam and Muslims are evil and need to be taken out.

I don't dispute this is your experience but personally I have never ONCE seen Islam presented as candy and kisses face.

 

[nazz]

Hey nazz,

Earlier in the thread you mentioned "extremists" so I thought it would be useful to understand what you mean, and where you would draw the line between varying degrees of belief. It seemed that in your post you had some different categories in mind?

Extremism can and does mean different things. It's not even necessarily a bad thing. But where extremism translates to religious violence that is something bad.

nazz and Augustus,

I'm curious to know what makes you think Geert Wilders is a bigot and Islamophobe?

Are you serious?

Wilders is best known for his criticism of Islam, summing up his views by saying, "I don't hate Muslims, I hate Islam".[4] Although identifying Islamic extremists as 5–15% of Muslims,[92] he argues that "there is no such thing as 'moderate Islam'" and that the "Koran also states that Muslims who believe in only part of the Koran are in fact apostates".[81] He suggests that Muslims should "tear out half of the Koran if they wished to stay in the Netherlands" because it contains "terrible things" and that Muhammad would "... in these days be hunted down as a terrorist".[99]

On 8 August 2007, Wilders opined in an open letter[100] to the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant that the Koran, which he called a "fascist book", should be outlawed in the Netherlands, like Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf.[101] He has stated that "The book incites hatred and killing and therefore has no place in our legal order".[102] He has also referred to Mohammed as "the devil".[26] In September 2009 Wilders proposed to put a tax on Hijab wearing by Muslim women. He suggested women could purchase a license at a cost of €1000 and that the money raised could be used in projects beneficial to women's emancipation.[103][104]

He believes that all Muslim immigration to the Netherlands should be halted and all settled immigrants should be paid to leave.[4] Referring to the increased population of Muslims in the Netherlands, he has said:

Take a walk down the street and see where this is going. You no longer feel like you are living in your own country. There is a battle going on and we have to defend ourselves. Before you know it there will be more mosques than churches![105]

In a speech before the Dutch Parliament, he stated:

Islam is the Trojan Horse in Europe. If we do not stop Islamification now, Eurabia and Netherabia will just be a matter of time. One century ago, there were approximately 50 Muslims in the Netherlands. Today, there are about 1 million Muslims in this country. Where will it end? We are heading for the end of European and Dutch civilisation as we know it. Where is our Prime Minister in all this?

In reply to my questions in the House he said, without batting an eyelid, that there is no question of our country being Islamified. Now, this reply constituted a historical error as soon as it was uttered. Very many Dutch citizens, Madam Speaker, experience the presence of Islam around them. And I can report that they have had enough of burkas, headscarves, the ritual slaughter of animals, so‑called honour revenge, blaring minarets, female circumcision, hymen restoration operations, abuse of homosexuals, Turkish and Arabic on the buses and trains as well as on town hall leaflets, halal meat at grocery shops and department stores, Sharia exams, the Finance Minister's Sharia mortgages, and the enormous overrepresentation of Muslims in the area of crime, including Moroccan street terrorists.[81]​

 

[YmirGF]

To be fair, I remember the high profile media figure Ann Coulter suggesting that America should nuke Mecca and forcibly convert Muslims to Christianity.

In all fairness, that is Anne Coulter, LOL. Does anyone take her seriously? Seriously?

 

[icehorse]

Hey nazz,

Your quotes about Wilders are interesting. Now I'm not defending all of these quotes, but many of them DO NOT appear to me to be examples of bigotry. I think of bigotry as holding beliefs about certain ethnic groups, not ideas. In other words, I'd say that it is not bigoted for a person to say they "hate Islam". Because Islam is just ideas.

 

[YmirGF]

This is why people don't like the term Islamophobia - because it's a weapon for one of the extreme sides of ignorance and its sympathizers which is used to force normal folks onto the other side.

More often than not the term is used in an authoritarian sense, used to vilify a person/group rather than promote a useful dialogue. It's a conversation killer and again, more often than not, precedes a narrative that supposedly shows a greater depth of understanding than is possible for your garden variety troglodyte to comprehend.

 

[nazz]

In all fairness, that is Anne Coulter, LOL. Does anyone take her seriously? Seriously?

Yes, tons of Americans do unfortunately.

 

[nazz]

Hey nazz,

Your quotes about Wilders are interesting. Now I'm not defending all of these quotes, but many of them DO NOT appear to me to be examples of bigotry. I think of bigotry as holding beliefs about certain ethnic groups, not ideas. In other words, I'd say that it is not bigoted for a person to say they "hate Islam". Because Islam is just ideas.

I'd say it is quite bigoted to say one hates Islam because it is equivalent to Nazism.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'd say it is quite bigoted to say one hates Islam because it is equivalent to Nazism.

Then it must be easy to present rational (as opposed to emotional) arguments why it is not.

I must agree with Icehorse in #131 above; hating Islam is a necessary and legitimate right. Islam is a set of ideas.

 

[nazz]

Then it must be easy to present rational (as opposed to emotional) arguments why it is not.

It is

 

[LuisDantas]

It is

Then there should be not much of a problem coming from those who compare the two.

 

[nazz]

Then there should be not much of a problem coming from those who compare the two.

Not sure what you mean. I'm saying it is easy to present rational (as opposed to emotional) arguments why Islam is not like Nazism.

 

[YmirGF]

Not sure what you mean. I'm saying it is easy to present rational (as opposed to emotional) arguments why Islam is not like Nazism.

One can hope. Islam is like Nazism as much as it is like Democracy. A clever wordsmith could probably even manage to sound somewhat informed on the subject.

In relation to the OP though, isn't it odd that you make sweeping generalizations against whom you discern to be Islamophobes for making precisely the same type of sweeping generalizations about Islam/Muslims. I smell a bit of a double-standard at play.

 

[LuisDantas]

Not sure what you mean. I'm saying it is easy to present rational (as opposed to emotional) arguments why Islam is not like Nazism.

I mean that if it is so, then there is not a problem to complain about. Islamophobia, to the extent it exists, is a nuisance at worst.

Much like Ann Coulter really.