What is Islamophobia?

[nazz]

Jolly good, Nazz. Me neither. Personally, I think we are witnessing the last gasps of Islam, as we know it, and in the next hundred years it will become little more than a dark memory that is perhaps best forgotten.

I rather doubt that. I think this century will be remembered for the clash between the West and the Islamic world. We've not seen nothing yet.

 

[nazz]

Your privilege, but others who did the same reached a different conclusion.

Don't see how that's possible. It would be like reading the OT and coming to the conclusion we need to fear that Jews will kill us because we believe in a different religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Don't see how that's possible. It would be like reading the OT and coming to the conclusion we need to fear that Jews will kill us because we believe in a different religion.

I just don't know how to answer that.

 

[nazz]

But you are bothered by something comparatively so minor as a "Islamophobia" that may not even exist?

As they say denial ain't just a river in Egypt. You are I think the only one who even addressed the material I posted in this thread as examples of extreme Islamophobia. I even asked the author of this thread to comment but I guess he won't. You dismiss these as ideas held by a small number of oddballs. I think you have no idea how rampant these views are here in the United States and Europe. And yes, that does alarm me because it constitutes a real threat that is growing. I mean why the heck do you think our President has to keep reminding the American people we are not at war with Islam? Of course Islamophobes just claim he is a radical jihadist too. I'm not talking about some radical rightwing fringe. This is mainstream thought in America.

Religions can and should be feared when they teach people to engage in destructive behavior. That is true even if we take for granted that such justification is by definition an abuse and misinterpretation of the doctrine.

Religions have no objective existence; they are simply ideas in the minds of people. As the religion of Islam exists in the vast majority of Muslim minds it constitutes no threat. What does pose a threat is moderate Muslims beginning to see the West as more and more a threat to Islam itself.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

You know, lately the talk has been about taking the religion 'out' of the extremism, that is to say, defining the extremism as just extremism without identifying the religion. So we are coming to a point where people are trying to cut the affiliation, people who are not 'extreme.' Case and point though, just to be fair, I'm not so sure such was the case when secularism had been grappling with the Christian sphere. Take the 'Christian Identity' group for instance, if you don't know who they are, look it up. They are considered an organization bound up with extremism and/or supremacism. When they had their news moments, did people say this wasn't a problem in the Christian community? Did they identify them as outsiders? I'd just like to know what the opinions are on that particular.

 

[nazz]

I just don't know how to answer that.

Do you need me to quote you the literal words of the OT? Like people do with the Qur'an?

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you need me to quote you the literal words of the OT? Like people do with the Qur'an?

That would make little difference. The point is rather that there is a clear difference of perspective between Jewish People and Christians when contrasted with Muslims when it comes to how they regard their scriptures.

For all that they often find themselves in questionable and unconfortable places while so doing, both Judaism and Christianity often acknowledge that they can and should aim to be more than just slaves to their scriptures.

Our disagreement regarding posts #70 and #71 is not solely about whether there are hateful passages in those other scriptures. It is rather also that Muslims basically forbid themselves from being too questioning of their own scriptures to a degree and is at least arguably rare in the other Abrahamic Faiths, and that the Quraan is somewhat more readily prepared to justify disregard of non-Muslims.

 

[nazz]

That would make little difference. The point is rather that there is a clear difference of perspective between Jewish People and Christians when contrasted with Muslims when it comes to how they regard their scriptures.

For all that they often find themselves in questionable and unconfortable places while so doing, both Judaism and Christianity often acknowledge that they can and should aim to be more than just slaves to their scriptures.

That is simply not true when it comes to both fundamentalist Christians or Orthodox Jews. Both those groups see their Scriptures as the inerrant Word of God. But just like many Muslims, Orthodox Jews view those violent passages in their holy book as applying only to a particular historical setting and do not see them as some general rule to be applied across the board (although it should be noted that Noachide laws if enforced would effectively bring them back). Fundamentalist Christians have a similar but slightly different take on the OT. They don't see themselves beholden to laws and instructions given only to the Jewish people.

The point is what I said before. It does not matter what any Scripture literally says. It only matters how it is currently interpreted.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is simply not true when it comes to both fundamentalist Christians or Orthodox Jews.

Indeed. But what worries me are not nearly so much the fundamentalists (although it must be noted that we have whole nations of fundamentalist Islam these days, while arguably none Jewish or Christian) as the average adherents and their reaction to fundamentalism and other excesses.

Most worrisome of all, the mechanisms for correcting those excesses seem to be all but completely non-existent in Islam.

(...)

The point is what I said before. It does not matter what any Scripture literally says. It only matters how it is currently interpreted.

On that much we agree.

 

[nazz]

Indeed. But what worries me are not nearly so much the fundamentalists (although it must be noted that we have whole nations of fundamentalist Islam these days, while arguably none Jewish or Christian) as the average adherents and their reaction to fundamentalism and other excesses.

I'm seeing more and more negative reaction to extremist Islam in the Muslim world even from groups who are themselves extremely conservative. I expect that will continue. But even for those who do not speak out publicly that should not be taken as token assent. Plenty of Christians never say a peep about extremist Christian groups.That doesn't mean they approve of what they do.

Most worrisome of all, the mechanisms for correcting those excesses seem to be all but completely non-existent in Islam.

What types of mechanisms would you like to see?

On that much we agree.

good to know

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm seeing more and more negative reaction to extremist Islam in the Muslim world even from groups who are themselves extremely conservative. I expect that will continue. But even for those who do not speak out publicly that should not be taken as token assent. Plenty of Christians never say a peep about extremist Christian groups.That doesn't mean they approve of what they do.

True enough. But it does not mean that they will accept political decisions from those extremist groups, either. I'm not so sure about how Islam deals with similar situations.

What types of mechanisms would you like to see?

Some that, I fear, may well doom Islam as a religion into self-destruction or at least into such profound change that it may well become unrecognizable. Mainly the arisal of movements that say "that is far enough" to scriptural literalism.

Tricky to do with Islam as I understand it to be. It may very well be a religion with built-in validity date.

good to know

Thanks.

 

[icehorse]

Hey nazz,

For the sake of better discussion, I'd be interested in hearing your summary of moderate Islam and extremist Islam or whatever labels and distinctions you make?

 

[Augustus]

I think you have no idea how rampant these views are here in the United States and Europe. And yes, that does alarm me because it constitutes a real threat that is growing.

You obviously mean well, but I think you underestimate the extent that many people in the 'Islamic World' hold views that you would find indefensible in any other group of people. There is no point in sugar coating it and it is not an insignificant percentage

Of course, this does not apply to all Muslims, or even most, and I will never criticise people for views they do not themselves hold, but just don't think it is only a fringe minority. Put it this way, under your definition, I don't think that a homosexual could ever be considered 'Islamophobic'. And you as a Christian, would not be 'equal' under the law in most Muslim majority countries (de facto at least, if not also de jure)

If we were to use your terminology, 'Christianophobia' is cetainly rampant in many parts of the Muslim world, never mind 'atheistophobia' or 'Jewophobia'. You must know that for a sizeable number of people everything bad that happens is a combination of America and the Jews.

It's not a one sided 'phobia'

What does pose a threat is moderate Muslims beginning to see the West as more and more a threat to Islam itself.

I do agree with the idea that Western policy causes a greater sympathy for extremist elements, and is frequently counterproductive though.

 

[nazz]

True enough. But it does not mean that they will accept political decisions from those extremist groups, either. I'm not so sure about how Islam deals with similar situations.

Well we don't know who will accept what until it happens. Germany's Christians did accept the extreme of Nazism. But nowadays most extremist Christian groups are not in a position to impose their collective wills politically speaking. We also have to ask how feasible it might be for any populace to overthrow an extremist regime in their own country. It's been done successfully in a few Muslim nations but then look at how bogged down things are in the Syrian rebellion.

Some that, I fear, may well doom Islam as a religion into self-destruction or at least into such profound change that it may well become unrecognizable. Mainly the arisal of movements that say "that is far enough" to scriptural literalism.

That will probably come eventually. It took nearly 2000 years before it happened in the Christian world and not without a lot of resistance that is still evident today. But literalism is not even necessarily the issue. Muslims who interpret the violent passages in the Qur'an as applying strictly to a specific historical time period are being just as literal as those who apply them to modern times.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well we don't know who will accept what until it happens. Germany's Christians did accept the extreme of Nazism. But nowadays most extremist Christian groups are not in a position to impose their collective wills politically speaking. We also have to ask how feasible it might be for any populace to overthrow an extremist regime in their own country. It's been done successfully in a few Muslim nations but then look at how bogged down things are in the Syrian rebellion.

That will probably come eventually. It took nearly 2000 years before it happened in the Christian world and not without a lot of resistance that is still evident today. But literalism is not even necessarily the issue. Muslims who interpret the violent passages in the Qur'an as applying strictly to a specific historical time period are being just as literal as those who apply them to modern times.

That is not very reassuring. Islam has not arisen in a vaccuum. It can and should have learned somewhat from Christianity and other sources - and, in fact, the Quran does make a lot of references to Judaism and Christianity. There is no good reason to expect it to replicate the development timeline of Christianity with any accuracy.

If anything, it should have a running start when compared to Christianity. And it at least arguably did, centuries ago.

 

[nazz]

You obviously mean well, but I think you underestimate the extent that many people in the 'Islamic World' hold views that you would find indefensible in any other group of people. There is no point in sugar coating it and it is not an insignificant percentage

Of course, this does not apply to all Muslims, or even most, and I will never criticise people for views they do not themselves hold, but just don't think it is only a fringe minority. Put it this way, under your definition, I don't think that a homosexual could ever be considered 'Islamophobic'. And you as a Christian, would not be 'equal' under the law in most Muslim majority countries (de facto at least, if not also de jure)

If we were to use your terminology, 'Christianophobia' is cetainly rampant in many parts of the Muslim world, never mind 'atheistophobia' or 'Jewophobia'. You must know that for a sizeable number of people everything bad that happens is a combination of America and the Jews.

It's not a one sided 'phobia'

I have never stated it was and in fact I have stated the problem is radicals on both sides. If someone were saying there are no Western-hating Muslims radicals I would say that is incorrect but who is saying that? All I keep hearing is that there are no Muslim hating Western radicals. That that is just a fantasy created by Islamic radicals. That's nonsense.

 

[LuisDantas]

All I keep hearing is that there are no Muslim hating Western radicals.

Not in anything resembling the quantities necessary to justify all those complaints about Islamophobia, no there are not.

 

[Magic Man]

Islamophobia is irrational fear or criticism of Islam/Muslims. As with racism, it can be extreme, as some of the examples posted in this thread are, or it can be more subtle. There is legitimate criticism to be made regarding Islam and Muslims, but a lot of the current criticism goes well beyond. Overgeneralizations lead to things like opposition to the "Ground-Zero mosque" and attacks on regular mosques and Muslims in the west. Saying things like "Islam is violent" and "Muslims support death to apostates" are examples of this, and represent Islamophobia.

 

[Magic Man]

Not in anything resembling the quantities necessary to justify all those complaints about Islamophobia, no there are not.

Really? Then what are all the attacks on mosques in France and Europe since the Charlie Hebdo attack?

 

[LuisDantas]

"Muslims support death to apostates" are examples of this, and represent Islamophobia.

Uh, there are whole Muslim nations that do support death to apostates. Or more properly, that hesitate in saying outright that it is wrong.

Sure, there are laws about arresting them instead, and claims that it takes "violent" apostasy to "deserve" death. But one would be hard pressed to see a clear statement that apostasy does not justify death.

Perhaps most revealing of all, Islam is the sole major religion which supports similar readings of its own scripture these days.