What is Islamophobia?

[LuisDantas]

Really? Then what are all the attacks on mosques in France and Europe since the Charlie Hebdo attack?

I must say that I was not even aware of any, so I will have to defer an opinion until I get some knowledge about them.

 

[nazz]

That is not very reassuring. Islam has not arisen in a vaccuum. It can and should have learned somewhat from Christianity and other sources - and, in fact, the Quran does make a lot of references to Judaism and Christianity. There is no good reason to expect it to replicate the development timeline of Christianity with any accuracy.

If anything, it should have a running start when compared to Christianity. And it at least arguably did, centuries ago.

I'm not quite following that line of reasoning. There is historical precedent in the work of St. Augustine for not taking everything in the Bible as literal historic fact. But he was the exception to the rule. Roman Catholicism did see church tradition as equally important to Scripture but the RCC still took the Scripture as literal. Modern biblical criticism is scarcely over a hundred years old. Islam being younger why would you think it would surpass Christianity in this regard?

 

[YmirGF]

I have never stated it was and in fact I have stated the problem is radicals on both sides. If someone were saying there are no Western-hating Muslims radicals I would say that is incorrect but who is saying that? All I keep hearing is that there are no Muslim hating Western radicals. That that is just a fantasy created by Islamic radicals. That's nonsense.

Even so, their numbers are few and they aren't that much of a concern. Can you give us the names of some of these Western Muslim haters so we can see where you are placing the bar of acceptability? Is Robert Spencer a hater of Islam and Muslims, for example?

 

[nazz]

Uh, there are whole Muslim nations that do support death to apostates. Or more properly, that hesitate in saying outright that it is wrong.

Again we should not judge the entire populace based on the actions of its government. I sure do not want to be judged on the basis on what MY government does and I live in a democracy! In fact doing so is exactly the reasoning Osama bin Laden used in attacking us on 9-11.

 

[Augustus]

I have never stated it was and in fact I have stated the problem is radicals on both sides. If someone were saying there are no Western-hating Muslims radicals I would say that is incorrect but who is saying that? All I keep hearing is that there are no Muslim hating Western radicals. That that is just a fantasy created by Islamic radicals. That's nonsense.

Don't think anyone has said that either, just that 'Islamophobia' is a stupid and inaccurate term that adds nothing to the debate except confusion, which is proved by pretty much every post in this thread.

Saying things like "Islam is violent" and "Muslims support death to apostates" are examples of this, and represent Islamophobia.

Another example of why 'Islamophobia' is a stupid word.

Islam is often violent, and millions of Muslims do support death to apostates. Simple fact.

If you say Islam is MOSTLY violent or ALL Muslims support death to apostates then that is obviously wrong, bigoted and stupid to believe. But the word 'Islamophobia' doesn't allow you to make this distinction without excessive additional explanation. It really amazes me that people can't see this.

Honestly, forget about labels like 'Islamophobic' and just explain things as they are. It might take a few more words, but it will be far more accurate and effective.

If someone is being hyperbolic, paranoid or bigoted, point this out and explain why they are being so. There is no situation in which the word Islamophobia could not be replaced by a more accurate and effective combination of other words.

 

[nazz]

Even so, their numbers are few and they aren't that much of a concern. Can you give us the names of some of these Western Muslim haters so we can see where you are placing the bar of acceptability? Is Robert Spencer a hater of Islam and Muslims, for example?

Go back to post #36 in this thread and read from there. In the US the number of Islamophobes is quite high, a significant portion of our population.

 

[YmirGF]

I rather doubt that. I think this century will be remembered for the clash between the West and the Islamic world. We've not seen nothing yet.

I can understand the doubt. My thinking is based on the possibility of the majority of Muslims coming to terms with and accepting modernity, thus replacing their ancient dogmatic thinking. I do agree about the clash of cultures though. That much is a bit obvious however.

 

[nazz]

Not in anything resembling the quantities necessary to justify all those complaints about Islamophobia, no there are not.

Yes, there really are, Luis, right here in the US. Heck, one in six Americans believe Obama is a Muslim and was behind the terrorist attacks in Benghazi.

 

[YmirGF]

Go back to post #36 in this thread and read from there. In the US the number of Islamophobes is quite high, a significant portion of our population.

Oh, I passed over that drivel. I've never even heard of Erik Rush. That aside, citing "Right Wing Watch" as a reputable source is somewhat telling. Heck, why not just quote from LoonWatch while you're at it.

 

[nazz]

Hey nazz,

For the sake of better discussion, I'd be interested in hearing your summary of moderate Islam and extremist Islam or whatever labels and distinctions you make?

I think it's difficult to give hard definitions for those terms. What specifically do you want me to address?

 

[nazz]

Oh, I passed over that drivel. I've never even heard of Erik Rush. That aside, citing "Right Wing Watch" as a reputable source is somewhat telling. Heck, why not just quote from LoonWatch while you're at it.

Well if you went to the links they back up what they say with videos and audio links. Do you live in the US? I hear this stuff firsthand.

 

[YmirGF]

Well if you went to the links they back up what they say with videos and audio links. Do you live in the US? I hear this stuff firsthand.

Fortunately, no, I don't live in Obamastan.

 

[nazz]

Fortunately, no, I don't live in Obamastan.

Then you should not speak as some kind of expert about what is going here. And calling it Obamastan makes me wonder if you are not just another Islamophobe yourself.

 

[Augustus]

Go back to post #36 in this thread and read from there. In the US the number of Islamophobes is quite high, a significant portion of our population.

I think Geert Wilders is an anti-Muslim bigot.

Using your definition, is he 'Islamophobic' though? If so, why?

 

[YmirGF]

Then you should not speak as some kind of expert about what is going here. And calling it Obamastan makes me wonder if you are not just another Islamophobe yourself.

Well, I do know a lot of Americans, from all over the US. Some are a bit more shrill than others, but I haven't heard any of them saying we should destroy or deport all Muslims. Where are you, the Ozarks?

 

[nazz]

I think Geert Wilders is an anti-Muslim bigot.

Using your definition, is he 'Islamophobic' though? If so, why?

Never heard of him before now but from what I just read, yeah, he qualifies. He has an irrational fear and hatred of Islam based on ignorance.

 

[nazz]

Well, I do know a lot of Americans, from all over the US. Some are a bit more shrill than others, but I haven't heard any of them saying we should destroy or deport all Muslims. Where are you, the Ozarks?

No, but I am not talking about hearing it necessarily where I live. I am talking about talking on line with other Americans as well as just following the news.

 

[Augustus]

Never heard of him before now but from what I just read, yeah, he qualifies. He has an irrational fear and hatred of Islam based on ignorance.

If you have a 24h armed guard because lots of Muslims want to kill you, can your fear be considered irrational though?

 

[Augustus]

Well, I do know a lot of Americans, from all over the US. Some are a bit more shrill than others, but I haven't heard any of them saying we should destroy or deport all Muslims.

To be fair, I remember the high profile media figure Ann Coulter suggesting that America should nuke Mecca and forcibly convert Muslims to Christianity.

 

[nazz]

If you have a 24h armed guard because lots of Muslims want to kill you, can your fear be considered irrational though?

It's not irrational to fear people who want to kill you. It's irrational to think that because the people who want to kill you identify as Muslims that makes ALL Muslims dangerous.