What is it with muslims and torture?

[Bismillah]

We must be savages at heart perhaps the West should administer the rest of the world, oh wait we already tried that and witnessed the worldwide slaughter that resulted in.

Maybe we wouldn't be so good at it if the CIA didn't hand out such helpful manuals and knowledgeable instructors?

 

[Bismillah]

I actually have a pet theory on this which is that other scriptures are believed to be divinely inspired in humans. So, God is addressed in the 2nd or 3rd person.

Alright let's hear it.

The Quran, OTOH, is believed to be the literal word of Allah himself. The Quran is in the 1st person.

Wrong the Qur'an contains all three points of view using a complex literary pattern of shifting called iltifat. If you are more interested in this feel free to ask.

When 1.5 Billion people believe that God himself asks them to marry 4 wives

Oh wow marry four wives, is that really mandatory I must be behind the curve. In fact that Qur'an is one of the only scriptures in the world restricting marriage to one wife on the condition of emotional and financial equality.

beat your wives

No, classical consensus is not that wives can be beat and to illogically simplify the construct of marriage to one point of physical submission really reveals more about the author of such sick fantasies than the Qur'an

slaughter animals

What's the matter you don't enjoy a burger?

kill homosexuals

Actually wrong, while the Bible does contain verses condemning homosexuals to death the Qur'an does not.

divide property according to Quranic algebra

So inheritance is a bad thing?

dont take interest on loans

Yes because excessive interest is the one thing our economy needs right now

Quran 9:5, Quran 9:29

Quote them for you, me and the rest of the peanut gallery.

the wiggle room for liberal interpretation of the text is non-existent.

Maybe if one were to take that horror show of a paragraph above as representative of the Qur'an, lolwat, perhaps you could condense some horrid literal genocidal text, good thing it is all nonsensical blabbering.

So, yeah...it sucks.

Alright your scholarly analysis has convinced me, where does the line start?

 

[cablescavenger]

With the Arab Spring events, I have been hoping for more civilization in the muslim world. Now, however, there are reports of torture under the new regime in Libya. Hopes dashed.

Muslim societies have been notorious for torture for a very long time. Even some participants in this forum seem to approve of people being beaten. It seems that if one falls into the hands of the police in muslim lands, one can expect to be tortured and even beaten to death.

Why do muslim societies approve, even embrace, torture?

How do you equate a a few bad apples in one country, enduring civil war and transition, as evidence that the Muslim world approves of and embraces torture?

 

[Nooj]

Good point. I looked at that sentence and almost edited it out.

It is also true that Russians have a cultural tendency which results in very macho males in power. This was first pointed out to me by a Russian, BTW. As I have been led to understand it, Russians would not elect anyone but a headkicking strong man.

So your example still goes to my point that it is a cultural tendency rather than a religious one. Do you agree with that ?

Depends on what you mean by culture I guess. The Khmer Rouge, Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia are just some of the countries most known for their use of torture. But I don't think it was because of culture as such, since their cultures were all very different.

They were all totalitarian societies, but free democratic countries have shown a willingness to show torture as well, like France during the Algerian War.

I personally think the reason why so many totalitarian societies use torture is because totalitarianism represses the debate and dissension that would normally arise from its citizens. And when people at the top can do whatever they like, that can lead more easily to abuse of human rights. But certainly every and any government is capable of this. In my opinion, a free democracy isn't necessarily any better than a totalitarian one at staving off torture. For example, what if the majority of people support torture?

 

[Looncall]

I'd like to repeat my request for information. Is there a muslim-dominated society in which torture is not common?

 

[sandandfoam]

I'd like to repeat my request for information. Is there a muslim-dominated society in which torture is not common?

What are you trying to do with your question?

 

[sandandfoam]

I'd like to repeat my request for information. Is there a muslim-dominated society in which torture is not common?

I don't know. But I've been trying to think of an English speaking society that is not at the very least complicit in torture and I have failed.
That's why I don't understand what you are trying to do withh your question - why single out Islam rather than 'democratic',Christian, white, European etc etc etc

 

[cablescavenger]

I'd like to repeat my request for information. Is there a muslim-dominated society in which torture is not common?

The Maldives

 

[Looncall]

I don't know. But I've been trying to think of an English speaking society that is not at the very least complicit in torture and I have failed.
That's why I don't understand what you are trying to do withh your question - why single out Islam rather than 'democratic',Christian, white, European etc etc etc

You seem to be missing the word "common" here. In at least many of the societies you mention, one need not actually expect torture in the hands of the authorities, as I gather is the case in muslim places.

Actually, I would be rather pleased to find that my perception is inaccurate, if only in one such place. However, all I am hearing is crickets.

 

[sandandfoam]

You seem to be missing the word "common" here. In at least many of the societies you mention, one need not actually expect torture in the hands of the authorities, as I gather is the case in muslim places.

Who has, in the main, installed and maintained the authorities you are referring to?
IMHO the source of torture lies with 'democratic' states more often than Muslim states. Even when that torture is perpetrated in Muslim countries. Twenty years ago it was South America.

But to return to my question - Why do you pose your question?

 

[Godobeyer]

With the Arab Spring events, I have been hoping for more civilization in the muslim world. Now, however, there are reports of torture under the new regime in Libya. Hopes dashed.

Muslim societies have been notorious for torture for a very long time. Even some participants in this forum seem to approve of people being beaten. It seems that if one falls into the hands of the police in muslim lands, one can expect to be tortured and even beaten to death.

Why do muslim societies approve, even embrace, torture?

good thread and point ,honestly there is a big different between Islam and some muslims , the islam ever never told to kill innocent , what ever his/her religion .
for issue soft beating for insoburdinate wife that a solution (one of steps) proposed by God to avoid the divorce at the first problem .
in this case the divorce in islam is last (fifth) step , (after 4 steps ),

 

[Looncall]

Who has, in the main, installed and maintained the authorities you are referring to?
IMHO the source of torture lies with 'democratic' states more often than Muslim states. Even when that torture is perpetrated in Muslim countries. Twenty years ago it was South America.

But to return to my question - Why do you pose your question?

I pose the question because I am puzzled by what i see. I don't understand why any society would tolerate torture at all, never mind engage in it by wholesale.

I don't buy your "blame the west" gambit. It is still muslim people doing the torture .. and they could choose not to. Anyway, your ploy falls apart in the case of Iran since it is a self-installed theocracy where the authorities are supposed to be experts on islam.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Why do muslim societies approve, even embrace, torture?

Torture is not an Islamic thing, its a human thing. Torture has been a long standing human tradition and its often the female gender that excells at the practice.

Judge delays ruling in Calgary torture case | CTV News
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Main News
Torture, kidnap reports meet defiance from China - Bikya Masr
Update: Suspect charged with torture in death of girl - Taft, CA - Taft Midway Driller

And that was just a quick google search. So, to answer your question, "What is it with Muslims and torture?" They are human and therefore have examples of the worst of us within their community. I'm sure they would like us to judge them according to the best rather than the worst, much like we would.

 

[Rational_Mind]

At this point I would like to state that I am very happy to see that there are non-muslims who are not quick to make judgements and neither are they ignorant. Two Thumbs UP!

 

[nameless]

IMHO the source of torture lies with 'democratic' states more often than Muslim states.

persecuting the homosexuals, stoning to death for adultery, persecuting non-believers and forced conversion has something to do with religion, at least those torturers finds justification for torture from their faith. But how can a torturer in a democratic state could get justification for torture from democracy?

 

[nameless]

Torture is not an Islamic thing, its a human thing.

that would make shariah a human thing(muslims dont believe so), since it calls for torture.

 

[Nooj]

persecuting the homosexuals, stoning to death for adultery, persecuting non-believers and forced conversion has something to do with religion, at least those torturers finds justification for torture from their faith. But how can a torturer in a democratic state could get justification for torture from democracy?

Utilitarian arguments. National security. A necessary evil, for the greater good.

 

[Quagmire]

persecuting the homosexuals,

^ Nazis did it. So did the Russians and the Cubans under Castro.

persecuting non-believers

^ Every totalitarian government based on an ideology has had some version of this.

and forced conversion

^ This too.

has something to do with religion,

And just as easily and just as often it has nothing to do with religion.

at least those torturers finds justification for torture from their faith. But how can a torturer in a democratic state could get justification for torture from democracy?

By appealing to the popular prejudices and paranoia's of their public.

 

[Quagmire]

I don't buy your "blame the west" gambit.

Ironic considering the example you use next:

It is still muslim people doing the torture .. and they could choose not to. Anyway, your ploy falls apart in the case of Iran since it is a self-installed theocracy where the authorities are supposed to be experts on islam.

Once upon a time Iran had a democratically elected leadership...

In 1951, after the assassination of prime minister Ali Razmara, Dr. Mohammad Mosaddegh was elected prime minister by a parliamentary vote which was then ratified by the Shah. As prime minister, Mosaddegh became enormously popular in Iran after he nationalized Iran's petroleum industry and oil reserves....

Then the west stepped in...

In response, the British government, headed by Winston Churchill, embargoed Iranian oil and successfully enlisted the United States to join in a plot to depose the democratically elected government of Mosaddegh. In 1953 US President Dwight D. Eisenhower authorized Operation Ajax. The operation was successful, and Mosaddegh was arrested on 19 August 1953. The coup was the first time the US had openly overthrown an elected, civilian government.[113]

Which resulted in an elimination of all the checks heretofore responsible for preventing the emergence of an oppressive dictatorship...

After Operation Ajax, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's rule became increasingly autocratic. With American support, the Shah was able to rapidly modernize Iranian infrastructure, but he simultaneously crushed all forms of political opposition with his intelligence agency, SAVAK. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini became an active critic of the Shah's White Revolution and publicly denounced the government.

The emergence and success of the current theocracy was, if anything, a response to everything that came before it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran#Pahlavi_dynasty_.281925.E2.80.931979.29

 

[Sahar]

With the Arab Spring events, I have been hoping for more civilization in the muslim world. Now, however, there are reports of torture under the new regime in Libya. Hopes dashed.

Muslim societies have been notorious for torture for a very long time. Even some participants in this forum seem to approve of people being beaten. It seems that if one falls into the hands of the police in muslim lands, one can expect to be tortured and even beaten to death.

Why do muslim societies approve, even embrace, torture?

Because torture makes you feel good...

Seriously, I am amazed at the level of thinking shown in the OP.

Surely, the people who revolted in Egypt, Tunisia, Syria and other places didn't revolt against the misuse of powers by the ruling regimes, didn't revolt against oppression and humiliation imposed by them upon their peoples, right? :sarcastic

As for Libya, it's expected for things to get out of hand because you're speaking about a country with no institutions; no army, no police, no competent judiciary system, no parliament...etc.

Looncall, what do you think of the Muslim people who revolted across the Arab world while knowing they will face torture and death as a result? What do you think of the Syrian people who insist on going out to the streets challenging death and worst kinds of torture? Who is being tortured and murdered here?

Is this what you have to say about them, calling such exceptionally courageous people "they embrace torture"? Who embrace torture except the merciless criminals of the totalitarian and corrupt regimes? And who has been tortured except the people? And who spoke up against such crimes except the people? Why were people fed up with their ruling regimes, you think? Why did they revolt? They were murdered and injured for what reason?

What kind of mind and heart do you have to make such judgment about people among whom a lot lost their lives, their eyes, their legs, endured torture, lost their loved ones just for the sake of dignity and freedom?

I am really sad that with all the sacrifices people made, and the people are being being subjected to murder, torture and siege everyday in Syria and then someone sitting on his comfortable couch thousands of kilometers away comes and says with coldness; hey why such peoples embrace torture!!