What is it with muslims and torture?

[Looncall]

For that you have to look for cultural roots which can go much further back than religious ones. You point out Afghanistan. Torture was a part of their culture long before they became Muslims and the roots to how they use torture today go back to that, not Islam. Just ask Alexander the Great.

It appears as though you want Islam to be the cause therefore you are looking for only evidence that will support your desired outcome.

So, why do we see the same thing across diverse cultures?

in any case, isn't islam supposed to be a religion of peace and compassion?

Actually, I have specifically asked for evidence that refutes my opinion (muslim-dominated societies in which torture is uncommon). So far, none has been forthcoming.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So, why do we see the same thing across diverse cultures?

Which cultures are you speaking of? What are their cultural roots? Can you name one that doesn't fit my example of torture being apart of the culture prior to Islam?

in any case, isn't islam supposed to be a religion of peace and compassion?

Sure, most all religions are and all have limited success in realising that goal. What is your point?

Actually, I have specifically asked for evidence that refutes my opinion (muslim-dominated societies in which torture is uncommon). So far, none has been forthcoming.

Well if you are going to ignore history and anthropology it will be pretty hard to refute your predetermined bias, er, I mean opinion.

 

[Looncall]

Which cultures are you speaking of? What are their cultural roots? Can you name one that doesn't fit my example of torture being apart of the culture prior to Islam?



Sure, most all religions are and all have limited success in realising that goal. What is your point?



Well if you are going to ignore history and anthropology it will be pretty hard to refute your predetermined bias, er, I mean opinion.

Another way to look at this is to consider other cultures that used torture at one time (just about any you wish to choose) but have now rejected it. Why have they been able to do that, but muslim ones have not?

I do not see that past barbarities justify present ones, especially when examples of more humane behaviour are at hand and the dominant ideology claims to value compassion.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Another way to look at this is to consider other cultures that used torture at one time (just about any you wish to choose) but have now rejected it. Why have they been able to do that, but muslim ones have not?

I do not see that past barbarities justify present ones, especially when examples of more humane behaviour are at hand and the dominant ideology claims to value compassion.

So your arguement is that human societies with a technological and educational advantage are morally superior because they have progressed past their tribal practices of torture? :sarcastic

 

[nameless]

Which cultures are you speaking of? What are their cultural roots?

india and pakistan has everything in common except religion, while india(being one and only hindu nation) is the home for the biggest democracy, pakistan holds the record for hosting highest religious crimes and terrorists, why it is so?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

india and pakistan has everything in common except religion, while india(being one and only hindu nation) is the home for the biggest democracy, pakistan holds the record for hosting religious crimes and terrorists, why it is so?

I'm sorry, are you saying India has no torture in its society?

http://www.achrweb.org/reports/india/torture2010.pdf

The rest of the world begs to differ. And how about the practice of stealing children and maiming them so they can beg? Very civilized.

 

[nameless]

I'm sorry, are you saying India has no torture in its society?

http://www.achrweb.org/reports/india/torture2010.pdf

The rest of the world begs to differ. And how about the practice of stealing children and maiming them so they can beg? Very civilized.

i wonder how this is related to my post. Or how it is related to democracy?

Unfortunately the civilzed people from the west looted everything from india centuries ago, leaving people into hard poverty. Let poverty affect your nation, you will see more civilized people emerging in your nation.

and are you purposefully deviating from the topic?

my question exactly is, having india and pakistan sharing same people and cultural roots, why large(st in the world) number of religious crimes occur in pakistan?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

i wonder how this is related to my post. Or how it is related to democracy?

I answered your post in the context of the thread which is an attempt to attach the concept of torture to Islam. My stance is that torture is more cultural than religious.

my question exactly is, having india and pakistan sharing same people and cultural roots, why large(st in the world) number of religious crimes occur in pakistan?

Since I have absolutly no facts or statistics on the subject I can't comment. What is considered a religious crime? How are crimes in either country catergorized? Could crime in India be reported as non-religious when it is actually very religious? Could crime in Pakistan be labeled religious whether it is or not? I don't know so its impossible to comment on.

Also, since this entire thread is about how torture and Islam are connected I don't see what you're getting at. Are you trying to say that crime and Islam are connected? One good generalization deserves a second?

 

[nameless]

I answered your post in the context of the thread which is an attempt to attach the concept of torture to Islam. My stance is that torture is more cultural than religious.

why are you are just blindly avoiding the probablity that religion could cause tortures? Of course, culture is a factor for tortures, but it does not necessarily mean all religious tortures are result of the cultural backgrounds. Non-religious tortures occurs in many parts of the world, but religious tortures does not.

Stealing children and other non-religious crimes happen in pakistan just like those in india. But when it comes to religious crimes, india is no where near pakistan. If culture is the only cause for religious crimes, it should be happening in same amoount in india also, this is where you are terribly wrong.

Since I have absolutly no facts or statistics on the subject I can't comment.

Here you go ..

From wikipedia

In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2% in the years since independence. According to the 1998 Pakistan Census, caste Hindus constitute about 1.6 percent of the total population of Pakistan.


Since Pakistan declared itself an Islamic nation and pursued a decidedly Islamic course in its political and social life since the 1980s, Hindus as a minority in Pakistan have had considerably fewer privileges, rights and protections in comparison to minorities in India, which constitutionally avows itself secular and giving of equal rights to its religious minorities including the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities. Cultural marginalization, discrimination, economic hardships and religious persecution have resulted in many Hindus converting to other religions (Islam, Christianity), and today Hindus constitute barely 1.8% of Pakistan's population. Because Hindus are not "People of the Book" like Christians, they have generally been given fewer rights informally (de facto) by the Muslim majority than the country's Christians (see Dhimmi),

Forced Conversions
Hindu women have also been known to be victims of kidnapping and forced conversion to Islam.[104] Around 20 to 25 Hindu girls are abducted every month and converted to Islam forcibly.[105] Krishan Bheel, a Hindu member of the National Assembly of Pakistan, came into the news recently for manhandling Qari Gul Rehman after being taunted with a religious insult.[106]
On October 18, 2005, Sanno Amra and Champa, a Hindu couple residing in the Punjab Colony, Karachi, Sindh returned home to find that their three teenage daughters had disappeared. After inquiries to the local police, the couple discovered that their daughters had been taken to a local madrassah, had been converted to Islam, and were denied unsupervised contact with their parents.[107]
A Pakistan Muslim League politician has states that abduction of Hindus and Sikhs is a business in Pakistan, along with conversions of Hindus to Islam.

During the 1971 Bangladesh atrocities there were widespread killings and acts of ethnic cleansing of civilians in Bangladesh (then East Pakistan, a province of Pakistan), and widespread violations of human rights were carried out by the Pakistan Army, which was supported by political and religious militias during the Bangladesh Liberation War. In Bangladesh, the atrocities are identified as a genocide. Many of the victims were Hindus, and the total death toll was in the millions.[101][102]TIME magazine reported that "The Hindus, who account for three-fourths of the refugees and a majority of the dead, have borne the brunt of the Muslim military's hatred."[103]

According to the Sustainable Development Policy Institute report 'Associated with the insistence on the Ideology of Pakistan has been an essential component of hate against India and the Hindus. For the upholders of the Ideology of Pakistan, the existence of Pakistan is defined only in relation to Hindus, and hence the Hindus have to be painted as negatively as possible'[92] A 2005 report by the National Commission for Justice and Peace a non profit organization in Pakistan, found that Pakistan Studies textbooks in Pakistan have been used to articulate the hatred that Pakistani policy-makers have attempted to inculcate towards the Hindus.

Hinduism in Pakistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you trying to say that crime and Islam are connected? One good generalization deserves a second?

Being a human if you have any seriousness with this sorts of religious tortures, you should consider all probabilities with equal importance. Im not ashamed to say these sort of religious crimes can be directly or indirectly related to islam, since it happens mostly when muslims are majority.

 

[Bismillah]

Wow way to derail this thread. nameless I'm not sure why you are projecting your own nationalist ideals but you need to ground yourself in reality.

Hindu nationalists have their own nasty history of anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, and anti-Sikh riots. Lest we not forget for example the nationalist's own part in sparking the 2002 Gujrat riots against Muslims and the lack of conviction of any prominent parties culpable of the crime.

So yes you can point the finger at Pakistan it is an easy target, but to deny that foundation of Pakistan which was based on a secular and equal order but realistically also grounded in Islamic culture unique to the subcontinent. The fact that you relate all of Pakistan's woe's to religion is only telling of your eagerness to paint with your assumptions and your own self-admitted bigotry. I've been confronted with the idea that Pakistan is a "failed state" on the basis of Islam alone many times and each time this idea has never been supported with substantial evidence. I'll leave this quote of mine for you to refute and prove your point

Ok take Pakistan then. I would think that "superstition" is a low to non-existent reason for the continual decline of the country. I would cite a lack of competent government, aided and abetted by continual military coups, of an equally incompetent civilian government. A bureaucracy that is impossibly obsolete and corrupt and cannot ensure even the most basic duties of a ruling party outside of Peshawer. Non-existent taxes that result in a foreign dependent government, which insists on spending the majority of its money on its armed forces against the Indian threat. This fuels the vicious cycle of continuously feeding the Pakistani military while strangling the Pakistani economy by the other hand. This results in an alienated middle class that flees at the first sign of a green card and land barons who hoard their wealth, instituting in effect a feudal rulings within the government. Regular disturbances of electricity which continually stalls its industrial powerhouses such as cloth and textile production and a desperate need for water to feed its vital agricultural sector (the same sector that has been wiped out in the recent floods). Sectarian violence within Islamic factions as well as inter-religious factions, as well as ethnic tension and violence. Semi-autonomous regions that blatantly hold Islamabad in disregard and foster safe havens for the Taliban, that attacks both the puppet local government and the foreign governments that fund them. This along with one of the poorest literacy rates and anachronistic public school systems in the world ensures that the future generations will progressively decline in living standards.

No, I don't see superstition high on that list of threats for Pakistan, would you care to tell me how it is?

Compare this with the Saudi Kingdom, most likely the most "superstitious" place you can imagine. They are also unbelievably wealthy and any perceived "superstition" didn't prevent them from harnessing the oil wealth beneath their land and mass exporting it to the hands of eager capitalist nations.

Pakistan can be best described as a jelly state to strong to fail and to weak to thrive, it is plagued by a class of wealthy aristocrats since its beginning and ethnic rivalries between the Pathans, Punjabis, Balochis, and Bengalis. The idea that Islam is to blame reveals a complete lack of understanding of the country. Especially once one considers that the foundations of
Pakistan were never really "Islamic" to begin with.

I hope that this idea of accountability and culpability for one's own actions as well as the recognizing of the actions of others sinks in because I'm not going to waste my time or derail this thread any further. Especially when someone is ******* themselves silly over Indian nationalism.

 

[nameless]

Wow way to derail this thread. nameless I'm not sure why you are projecting your own nationalist ideals but you need to ground yourself in reality.

I have never derailed, tray of diamonds insisted that torture is always a cultural thing. I just did let him knew that he is wrong when it comes to india and pakistan sharing same cultural roots.

Hindu nationalists have their own nasty history of anti-Muslim, anti-Christian, and anti-Sikh riots. Lest we not forget for example the nationalist's own part in sparking the 2002 Gujrat riots against Muslims and the lack of conviction of any prominent parties culpable of the crime.

Anti-christian - Its first christians who attacked hindus, can you deny this fact? Things went out of control when christian missionaries joined hands with maoist terrorist groups to kill hindus.

anti-Sikh - This is nothing more than a joke, hindu nationalists were never part of congress. It is after these incidents sikhs joined hindu nationalists.

anti-muslim - In case of Gujrat riots, first it was hindus who got murdered, and hindus attacked back. People from both religion got murdered, though muslims were the majority.

There were hardly any major attack on non-hindus, unless hindus are attacked first.

Christians, jews, zorastrians, and even muslims were allowed to live peacefully even before centuries ago, and never they got attacked even once.

This is not the case in pakistan, its their national agenda to destroy hindus and hinduism forever.


If india had hate against islam, the muslim population would have become extinct just like what happened for hindus in pakistan . In fact muslim population is in a steady growth in India. Muslims in india has more rights and oppurtunities than hindus, can u deny this?

 

[Looncall]

So your arguement is that human societies with a technological and educational advantage are morally superior because they have progressed past their tribal practices of torture? :sarcastic

Well, I would say that any that have so progressed are morally superior (in respect to torture, maybe not in other respects) to those that have not, with or without such advantages. Wouldn't you?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I have never derailed, tray of diamonds insisted that torture is always a cultural thing. I just did let him knew that he is wrong when it comes to india and pakistan sharing same cultural roots.

I don't recall using the term always for anything, that would be very unlike me as I don't believe in absolutes and always tends to imply an absolute. What I was saying was that it is important to look for cultural roots to a societies behavior that go beyond their current religious beliefs. Especially with Islam since it is a relativly young religion, especially in Asian and Middle-Eastern societies that have cultures going back thousands of years prior to Islam's existance. Nor did I ever say India and Pakistan have the same cultural roots.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Well, I would say that any that have so progressed are morally superior (in respect to torture, maybe not in other respects) to those that have not, with or without such advantages. Wouldn't you?

No, I would never say that being technologically superior equates to being morally superior. Nor would I say that being morally superior will lead to becoming technologically superior. Either statement would be elitist.

 

[Looncall]

No, I would never say that being technologically superior equates to being morally superior. Nor would I say that being morally superior will lead to becoming technologically superior. Either statement would be elitist.

I agree with these statements, and have never put them forward. I would say, though, that those who have rejected torture are morally superior to those who have not. Technological advancement has nothing to do with it.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I agree with these statements, and have never put them forward. I would say, though, that those who have rejected torture are morally superior to those who have not.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I agree that the rejecting of torture is a moral thing to do.

Technological advancement has nothing to do with it.

I disagree. You realise that education is a technological advancement right? When considering technological advancement in a cultural context it means much more than just computer chips. The bow and arrow was a technological advancement. Growing crops, the wheel, cooking, teaching children. All technological advancements.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

I actually have a pet theory on this which is that other scriptures are believed to be divinely inspired in humans. So, God is addressed in the 2nd or 3rd person.

The Quran, OTOH, is believed to be the literal word of Allah himself. The Quran is in the 1st person.

When 1.5 Billion people believe that God himself asks them to marry 4 wives, beat your wives, slaughter animals, kill homosexuals, divide property according to Quranic algebra, dont take interest on loans, Quran 9:5, Quran 9:29, etc., etc. the wiggle room for liberal interpretation of the text is non-existent.

So, yeah...it sucks.

Assalamualaikum.

Do you bother studying the list before making this claim? Most of the things you just state out of context. And some of the things that you state correctly (like don't take interest on loans) ... how is that a bad thing?

Marry 4 wives - yes up to four if you can be fair to all four. Most can't be fair even to 1.

Beat your wives - beat? strong word. Yes after showing your displeasure with them for some genuine reason, seperating from them in bed and then if they still continue doing wrong (i.e. committing sin) chastisement is allowed. Just as the police is allowed to punish so, within a house the husband is allowed to chastise (without leaving a mark on her skin) his wife.

Kill homosexuals - false

Divide property according to Quranic algebra - don't know what the exact allegation here

and you go on and on ...

 

[Looncall]

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I agree that the rejecting of torture is a moral thing to do.



I disagree. You realise that education is a technological advancement right? When considering technological advancement in a cultural context it means much more than just computer chips. The bow and arrow was a technological advancement. Growing crops, the wheel, cooking, teaching children. All technological advancements.

I do not understand your point. How does one's technological status affect whether or not you are inclined to torture?

What I suspect makes the difference is the respect people have for individuals and their well-being. I suspect that an intense focus on an imagined afterlife leads to an indifference to suffering. If one is going to heaven for eternity, suffering in this life is small in comparison. Likewise, if one is going to hell, suffering here is small in comparison. Either way, cruelty would be a matter of indifference. Consequently, a society might develop an indifference to suffering and sociopaths might then run riot.

I would appreciate reading anyone's views on this idea or on any other ideas that would explain why a society would condone institutional torture.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

I do not understand your point. How does one's technological status affect whether or not you are inclined to torture?

Education. Quality of Life. Consider your own racial background. What were they like when they were in their tribal society stage? What's the difference between that stage and the current stage? Cultural technology.

What I suspect makes the difference is the respect people have for individuals and their well-being. I suspect that an intense focus on an imagined afterlife leads to an indifference to suffering. If one is going to heaven for eternity, suffering in this life is small in comparison. Likewise, if one is going to hell, suffering here is small in comparison. Either way, cruelty would be a matter of indifference. Consequently, a society might develop an indifference to suffering and sociopaths might then run riot.

I suspect you are wrong. You can think up all the unsupported theories you want but don't try to pass them off as fact without some evidence.

 

[Godobeyer]

as i see ,most of the muslims civilains wars and terrorism , cames after involve of western countries in it , Libya is one of them , and Syria now , and before it labonan , Iraq and Somale, and war of 1980 between Iraq and Iran and
the muslims "torture" or "terror" unforuntly is the bad result of the involvement of the Nato and western countries in muslim countries .