What is it with muslims and torture?

[Godobeyer]

Assalamualaikum.

Do you bother studying the list before making this claim? Most of the things you just state out of context. And some of the things that you state correctly (like don't take interest on loans) ... how is that a bad thing?

Marry 4 wives - yes up to four if you can be fair to all four. Most can't be fair even to 1.

Beat your wives - beat? strong word. Yes after showing your displeasure with them for some genuine reason, seperating from them in bed and then if they still continue doing wrong (i.e. committing sin) chastisement is allowed. Just as the police is allowed to punish so, within a house the husband is allowed to chastise (without leaving a mark on her skin) his wife.

Kill homosexuals - false

Divide property according to Quranic algebra - don't know what the exact allegation here

and you go on and on ...

wa aliykom alsalam
good reply brother

 

[Caladan]

With the Arab Spring events, I have been hoping for more civilization in the muslim world. Now, however, there are reports of torture under the new regime in Libya. Hopes dashed.

The Arab spring has backfired in several countries. it unfolded as some of the scenarios that were politically analyzed. in the case of Libya, possibly with similarity to other middle eastern countries it was said that with all the decades of criticism of Gadaffi's dictatorship, this dictatorship still held tribal tensions and other cultural tensions at bay. there was a risk that the removal of Gadaffi's regime will set lose decades of tensions in the country, which was the case in various episodes. the revolution itself was very bloody and escorted by cruelty. Egypt revolution also resulted in disappointing results where the Islamist and Muslim Brotherhood took the momentum, even though they were only taken a small part in the demonstration held by Egypt's youth. I think that at large we are simply looking at a different geographical reality, its going to be a slow process towards what we may call democratic standards that we know, if it happens at all in the future, which is in doubt.

Muslim societies have been notorious for torture for a very long time. Even some participants in this forum seem to approve of people being beaten. It seems that if one falls into the hands of the police in muslim lands, one can expect to be tortured and even beaten to death.

After reading this thread. I can clearly see that this paragraph of your post has been of course taken out of context. of course we can say that every government uses torture, but that is a pretty pointless observation. the objective reality is that human rights violations are unprecedented in Islamic countries in the middle east and elsewhere, it has been annually reported by all human rights international organizations and by the major media, so there is not much point to try to play down this fact.
personally I am not sure we can blame it on Islam and solve it with that, Islam is part of a larger cultural landscape. and there are many cultural problems in the middle east.

 

[Father Heathen]

The Arab spring has backfired in several countries. it unfolded as some of the scenarios that were politically analyzed. in the case of Libya, possibly with similarity to other middle eastern countries it was said that with all the decades of criticism of Gadaffi's dictatorship, this dictatorship still held tribal tensions and other cultural tensions at bay. there was a risk that the removal of Gadaffi's regime will set lose decades of tensions in the country, which was the case in various episodes. the revolution itself was very bloody and escorted by cruelty. Egypt revolution also resulted in disappointing results where the Islamist and Muslim Brotherhood took the momentum, even though they were only taken a small part in the demonstration held by Egypt's youth. I think that at large we are simply looking at a different geographical reality, its going to be a slow process towards what we may call democratic standards that we know, if it happens at all in the future, which is in doubt.

Right. You can topple dictators all day, but freedom, democracy and stability won't take root unless the culture is ripe for it.

 

[Caladan]

Right. You can topple dictators all day, but freedom, democracy and stability won't take root unless the culture is ripe for it.

That's what I'm thinking. decades of revolutions is simply not a sign of a stable society with a long term progress or long term plans.
Iran, Syria, Egypt and other countries in the region had several revolutions already, even before this last round. changing dictators for other dictators, going into civil wars, changing regional alliances and even the regional balance of power. these are all symptoms of profound lack of stability in the middle east.
I travelled some of these countries, and I would be dishonest in saying that some of the every day realities bear resemblance to what I see when I travel Paris, Barcelona or Rome.
sure, we can criticize every country and society on specific violations and political strife. but at least lets try to make order out of things when we report and observe.

 

[Looncall]

Right. You can topple dictators all day, but freedom, democracy and stability won't take root unless the culture is ripe for it.

Yet islam claims to be all-encompassing, so the culture in those places is surely largely determined by the dominant religion. Otherwise those claims of islam are untrue.

I really don't think one can separate culture and religion in the case of islam if one takes islam's claims at face value.

 

[Looncall]

as i see ,most of the muslims civilains wars and terrorism , cames after involve of western countries in it , Libya is one of them , and Syria now , and before it labonan , Iraq and Somale, and war of 1980 between Iraq and Iran and
the muslims "torture" or "terror" unforuntly is the bad result of the involvement of the Nato and western countries in muslim countries .

Muslim societies were notorious for torture before any of this involvement. Terrorism may be a different matter.

 

[Kerr]

as i see ,most of the muslims civilains wars and terrorism , cames after involve of western countries in it , Libya is one of them , and Syria now , and before it labonan , Iraq and Somale, and war of 1980 between Iraq and Iran and
the muslims "torture" or "terror" unforuntly is the bad result of the involvement of the Nato and western countries in muslim countries .

Doesnt excuse it, though.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I could've sworn that American ran places like Gitmo and Abu Ghrab were torturing people.

Don't forget L.A. County Jail

 

[Godobeyer]

Muslim societies were notorious for torture before any of this involvement. Terrorism may be a different matter.

the torture is not especial gender of Muslims it's in every society , if you want i will give you some history of other societies and religions ? when the God told Muslims in Quran don't kill or torture, and some of muslims break this law that the problem . but honesly most of civilain wars in Islam world it's all because of western involvement . my point is : if you are involvement in civil war in Libya for OIL of course , why you blame only us that there is civilain war and torture between the same people ?

 

[Godobeyer]

Doesnt excuse it, though.

it's a civilian war made by west , it's excuse it self .

 

[Godobeyer]

don't you see now , the western want a permission from UN to hit Syria , and Russia and China stop it by VETO .

 

[Kerr]

it's a civilian war made by west , it's excuse it self .

Could you explain what you mean by "civilian war"? I can only think of "civil war", but that is obviously not what the west is doing.

And just in case you dont know what a civil war is, here is a link:
Civil war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Father Heathen]

Yet islam claims to be all-encompassing, so the culture in those places is surely largely determined by the dominant religion. Otherwise those claims of islam are untrue.

I really don't think one can separate culture and religion in the case of islam if one takes islam's claims at face value.

I can't see any society dominated by Islamic fundamentalism as being anything other than an oppressive tyranny. Such societies will simply replace one despot with another.

 

[Godobeyer]

Could you explain what you mean by "civilian war"? I can only think of "civil war", but that is obviously not what the west is doing.

And just in case you dont know what a civil war is, here is a link:
Civil war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

sorry it's was error typing i just did not focus "civilian war" hhhhhhhhhhh
any way the civil war in libya right now , it's between whom with Nato , and whom against Nato .
it's like Iraq , whom with USA and whom against USA
and it's would happened in Syria and Iran and any place that Western involve in it .
did you get my point ?

 

[Kerr]

sorry it's was error typing i just did not focus "civilian war" hhhhhhhhhhh

Lol, no worries .

any way the civil war in libya right now , it's between whom with Nato , and whom against Nato .
it's like Iraq , whom with USA and whom against USA
and it's would happened in Syria and Iran and any place that Western involve in it .
did you get my point ?

I think I do. Still dont think its an excuse, though, even if it does serve as an explanation to why things are the way they are.

 

[Caladan]

sorry it's was error typing i just did not focus "civilian war" hhhhhhhhhhh
any way the civil war in libya right now , it's between whom with Nato , and whom against Nato .
it's like Iraq , whom with USA and whom against USA
and it's would happened in Syria and Iran and any place that Western involve in it .
did you get my point ?

I think one of the main issues this thread raises is not American foreign policy but the domestic challenges and conditions inside several Islamic countries, and why many such nations rank terribly in human rights record. when you compare the relative freedom and rights of an individual in North America or western Europe to many such nations there is a sharp contrast.
the way I see it, the question in the op is directed at the human suffering inside nations, not the wars between different nations.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think I do. Still dont think its an excuse, though, even if it does serve as an explanation to why things are the way they are.

of course any thing wrong it's not should not be excused , but a civil war it's like revenge between people .
, for me , the wrong begin when the west involve , this is the wrong that should not excused .
the west told that he want to bring freedom and democraty by how ? by a civil wars ? by stealing/controling their oil ?
the Iraq was seiged for 10 years for nuclear weapon , many reports talking about 1 million children dead acause of this seige , can you imagine that ?
the result of changing regim by force ,is civil war and terrorism.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think one of the main issues this thread raises is not American foreign policy but the domestic challenges and conditions inside several Islamic countries, and why many such nations rank terribly in human rights record. when you compare the relative freedom and rights of an individual in North America or western Europe to many such nations there is a sharp contrast.
the way I see it, the question in the op is directed at the human suffering inside nations, not the wars between different nations.

no, as i undersdand this thread talking about in general muslims why torture even they had changed their old regim (libya), and if this torture belong to the religion it self . (Islam teach to torture)

 

[Caladan]

no, as i undersdand this thread talking about in general muslims why torture even they had changed their old regim (libya)

Correct.

and if this torture belong to the religion it self . (Islam teach to torture)

it could be tribalism, ethnic strife, political rivalries, or Islamic extremism.

 

[Godobeyer]

Correct.

it could be tribalism, ethnic strife, political rivalries, or Islamic extremism.

accautly the extremism is exist in every religion and societies , for my opinion it's missunderstand the religion laws by his followers , or these followers (believers) intentional break the rules of this religion (by the name of it).