What is life?

[Thief]

not quite....if there is life after death....
this life is no more than a means to form unique spirit

when the chemistry fails...life goes on
and the question at hand takes a turn....without chemistry

 

[Sonofason]

This is amazing!

I believe we have just witnessed the genesis of an idea that will win the Nobel Prize! No, really!

Philosophers for thousands of years, and scientists for a few hundred years, have been trying to decide what life is, and here in just five days we've seen someone--with only a little feedback from other non-experts--determine that life is REALLY a force (apparently like gravity, electromagentism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces) and not just an emergent property of matter under certain conditions, or a description of a very complex chemical and energetic phenomenon...No, LIFE IS A FORCE, and we know this because Sonofason just thought it up because he didn't like any of the suggests anyone else provided and of course he knows more than all the biologists in the world.

So--you have just asserted that life is a force, weak or strong (whatever that means). How are you going to go about proving it? Got any data to show that there is something identifiable that can be detected independently? You gonna submit this idea for publication in Science or Nature? Going to to get any feedback from, say, biologists or chemists or physicists who study life and living systems?

[Personally, I hope you are just trying to being humorous here, so that we can both just laugh about how silly all this is. If you are serious, however, I think you are very silly to assert that you have solved the question, "What is life?"]

Honestly, no applause is necessary. It doesn't require a degree in biology to know what biologists know. Nor does it require a degree in biology to know more than biologists. Reason is a powerful instrument for acquiring knowledge. It is apparently possible to know more about biology than all the biologists in the world.

 

[Sonofason]

not quite....if there is life after death....
this life is no more than a means to form unique spirit

when the chemistry fails...life goes on
and the question at hand takes a turn....without chemistry

I'm with you thief. I haven't even begun to speak of the origin of the force of life.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Because you do not know exactly what life is, I'm quite certain you do not know whether life is a force or not...and neither does anyone else on this entire planet... except me perhaps. After all, I did just define the word for everyone to see with perhaps the most fitting and appropriate definition for the word that anyone has ever heard. Life is a propagating force that causes and initiates chemical processes such as reproduction and metabolism which are essential for living organisms to exist. Saying that life is simply a state or even a highly interactive state is quite meaningless and overly simplistic. A nuclear bomb is highly interactive, and I assure you nuclear bombs are not alive. But you, as well as I do well dismissing the modifying term animated from the discussion. Furthermore, I don't blame you for finding the term life unhelpful. After all how beneficial is a word when you don't really know what it means. Well congratulations, now you do.

Forces tend to put things into motion, and I do not see any feasible argument that could suggest that there isn't some form of motion taking place within living beings that can be attributed to anything other than life itself.

Human beings can go through many emotional states. We can be in a state of happiness, a state of sadness, a state of anger, etc. Human beings can exist in various physical states. We can be in a hungry state, tired, stressed, etc. The list of the states of being that a human being can exist in is extensive. But not life. There are only two descriptors that I can think of for forces. A force is either a weak force, or it is a strong force. Life is a force and so the force of life can only be weak, or strong, and that is indeed the case here.



Rivers are large natural flows of water or other substance that crosses an area of land and goes into an ocean, a lake, etc. If it is not large, it would not be a river, but something else, like a stream, or a trickle. Water, or particular water molecules can certainly be a part of a river, but water itself is not a river. Lava itself is not a river. Evaporated water is not a river. It is water vapor. A dried up river bed is not a river. It is a dried up river bed.

Rivers can meander. Their paths can change. They are capable of meandering over time. But if they are not flowing, they are not rivers. If they are not rather large flows of a substance, they are not rivers either. You could cry rivers of tears. But once you stop crying there is no river anymore. The river no longer exists.

As far as the matter of the river, like water molecules, sure water can exists in different states. It can exist as a liquid, it can exist as a solid (ice) or it can exist in a gaseous state (water vapor). The matter of water does not exist in any other state than those that I have here mentioned. If you exert enough energy and break apart the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen, the water you had no longer exists. The water is not in a different state. Oxygen is oxygen. It exists in three states as does water. It exists in no other state. Is the state of water in the form of rain any different than the state of water in the form of a river, or glass of water? I don't think so. The form that liquid water takes is not a state that it is in...well, not in my opinion anyway.

There are four Fundamental Forces known to exist, life is not one of them. Life is a highly animated, highly interactive state (emergent phenomena) which may arise given enough time and the right conditions. The term animated being a very relevant term since we consider life-forms to be animate and therefore animated in some way by those same Fundamental Forces. There is no one separate "force" that is life.


As far as the river analogy, I don't know what point you are trying to make because obviously when something changes form...a river for example...it is no longer a river. However, the fundamental interactions do not cease just because a river dries up.

 

[Runewolf1973]

not quite....if there is life after death....
this life is no more than a means to form unique spirit

when the chemistry fails...life goes on
and the question at hand takes a turn....without chemistry

Nothing can go on without some sort of interaction...fundamental interaction. The act of "going on" or continuing in some way after death requires an interaction of sorts, therefore you can never really escape physics or chemistry. Not that I believe any of this, but what would your spirit be doing if you were to say go to heaven after you died? Well perhaps you would be interacting with God in some way. Hmmm...divine chemistry...I never thought of that before.

 

[OurCreed]

As does the Bible.

Well, the Bible is my source for this sort of information, and I don't see it saying that. The Bible doesn't actually suggest that we had life before the womb, but it does seem to suggest that we did exist in some form before the creation of this earth. But from what I can tell, it only suggests that God knew us before we were born.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)

I have a pretty good idea of what I am going to build tomorrow. I have conceptualized it. I've been thinking about it for a long time. At the present time it exists, but only in my mind. Tomorrow I will build it, and it will be exactly as I have conceptualized it.

This is what the Qur'an says.

40;11
"They said, "Our Lord, twice You have put us to death and twice You have brought us to life; now we have confessed our sins, is there any way out?""

This verse is referring to what people will say to God on the Day of Judgement, when all of mankind will be judged. This statement tells us that before mankind arrived to the after life, they were put to death twice, and brought to life twice. So if our normal death (the one where we grow up as babies, become adults, become old and die), is one death, then what is the other death?

That other death is when we were living a life before this one on earth, and God caused us to die in that life and we were thus born in this world. So that old death that we don't remember + the death that is going to happen to all of us = 2 deaths.

Then the two times God has brought us to life. This may refer to the life we had on earth and the life we are given again when we die and enter the after life to be judged, thus "being brought to life." This means that after something has died, it was brought to life again. So this explains us the two times we were brought to life.

There are other verses as well, but I thought I may just share this simple one.

 

[OurCreed]

A lot of stuff in the Qur'an makes sense as does this teaching. In my own words, we were always interactive in some way, even before we appeared on the earth.

Probably yes.

 

[ArtieE]

I'm with you thief. I haven't even begun to speak of the origin of the force of life.

The origin of the force of life is in your head. It's called imagination.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Honestly, no applause is necessary. It doesn't require a degree in biology to know what biologists know. Nor does it require a degree in biology to know more than biologists. Reason is a powerful instrument for acquiring knowledge. It is apparently possible to know more about biology than all the biologists in the world.

Reason is a power instrument for acquiring knowledge if and only if it is used to draw conclusions from actual observation; your process here is a perfect illustration of Kant's point in the Critique of Pure Reason. You have reached a "logical" conclusion because you haven't bothered to even try to connect your reasoning to any observed facts of the world*. You are reasoning with speculation, not facts; therefore, it makes sense to you that life is a "force," while science has repeatedly shown that there is no room in the observations and no need in the theories of biology for some separate "life force" in order to explain the observations of "life."

*Actually, that's not true: the observed fact that is driving your reasoning (outside of the fact that life exists) is the Biblical story of the creation of life by God. In order for that to fit into the observations about life, there must be some vital breath of God that must be accounted for. Without that vital breath, life is just an emergent property of complex chemistry...and you just can't accept that, apparently, as you have rejected it out of hand, and without any observations than that you find it too simplistic.

 

[Sonofason]

There are four Fundamental Forces known to exist, life is not one of them.

I hear what you are saying. You are saying that you and everyone else, except me apparently, are aware of only four fundamental forces, and that life is not one of them. Assuming that you are telling the truth, and have the authority to speak for everyone else, your statement here might be correct. Apparently, you and everyone else have not yet been convinced that indeed another force exists. What I am suggesting is that there may indeed be another force that exists, and that force is the Life Force. In epistemology (philosophy of knowledge) knowledge is boiled down to a "Justified True Belief". While this is epistemologically true, this understanding has its limitations. It is quite possible, and is often the case that there are claims of knowledge where that "knowledge which is believed to be true is actually false. So we have people running around claiming they know this and they know that when what they really have is a belief that something is true or a belief that something is false. And the justifications for those beliefs, whether they be in the form of personal experience or evidence could actually be false. I understand that there are four fundamental forces known to you, but do you know that only four fundamental forces exist?

No, you don't.

Life is a highly animated, highly interactive state (emergent phenomena) which may arise given enough time and the right conditions. The term animated being a very relevant term since we consider life-forms to be animate and therefore animated in some way by those same Fundamental Forces. There is no one separate "force" that is life.

To your knowledge, this highly animated, highly interactive state (life) has only occurred once.

As far as the river analogy, I don't know what point you are trying to make because obviously when something changes form...a river for example...it is no longer a river. However, the fundamental interactions do not cease just because a river dries up.

Yes, that is what I said. A river that has dried up is not a river. So if we are in agreement here, I have to wonder why you made the following statement:
You said,

"What happens to a river when the water dries up? The river and the water does not cease to exist, it merely changes form along with everything else."

Why would you say the river and the water does not cease to exist? Of course it does.

 

[Sonofason]

This is what the Qur'an says.

40;11
"They said, "Our Lord, twice You have put us to death and twice You have brought us to life; now we have confessed our sins, is there any way out?""

This verse is referring to what people will say to God on the Day of Judgement, when all of mankind will be judged. This statement tells us that before mankind arrived to the after life, they were put to death twice, and brought to life twice. So if our normal death (the one where we grow up as babies, become adults, become old and die), is one death, then what is the other death?

That other death is when we were living a life before this one on earth, and God caused us to die in that life and we were thus born in this world. So that old death that we don't remember + the death that is going to happen to all of us = 2 deaths.

Then the two times God has brought us to life. This may refer to the life we had on earth and the life we are given again when we die and enter the after life to be judged, thus "being brought to life." This means that after something has died, it was brought to life again. So this explains us the two times we were brought to life.

There are other verses as well, but I thought I may just share this simple one.

It seems to me from what you are saying, the Koran and the Bible are in agreement with regard to this particular subject.

 

[Sonofason]

The origin of the force of life is in your head. It's called imagination.

Perhaps, and what you think is my imagination is your imagination

 

[Sonofason]

Reason is a power instrument for acquiring knowledge if and only if it is used to draw conclusions from actual observation; your process here is a perfect illustration of Kant's point in the Critique of Pure Reason. You have reached a "logical" conclusion because you haven't bothered to even try to connect your reasoning to any observed facts of the world*. You are reasoning with speculation, not facts; therefore, it makes sense to you that life is a "force," while science has repeatedly shown that there is no room in the observations and no need in the theories of biology for some separate "life force" in order to explain the observations of "life."

*Actually, that's not true: the observed fact that is driving your reasoning (outside of the fact that life exists) is the Biblical story of the creation of life by God. In order for that to fit into the observations about life, there must be some vital breath of God that must be accounted for. Without that vital breath, life is just an emergent property of complex chemistry...and you just can't accept that, apparently, as you have rejected it out of hand, and without any observations than that you find it too simplistic.

I'm sorry, I have already given evidence. Sorry you missed it. I have sufficient evidence to have a strong belief that life is a force. Not everyone is capable of seeing that which others can see.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Why would you say the river and the water does not cease to exist? Of course it does.

It must be just the way in which I wrote it, sorry. The river may no longer exist as a flowing river, but that which was the river (the water) exists as something else. Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, only change form, therefore nothing can truly ever cease to exist in some way, it can only cease to be a certain form...a river. That is what I meant. This is also one of the reasons why I don't believe in the whole "creation" thing.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

I'm sorry, I have already given evidence. Sorry you missed it. I have sufficient evidence to have a strong belief that life is a force. Not everyone is capable of seeing that which others can see.

It may be enough for you to believe, but it is nowhere near enough to convince me that you are doing anything except speculating. Your "evidence" makes your idea a hypothesis--one that is not well supported by the evidence of chemistry, biology and physics. Until you can demonstrate the "life force" in a way similar to, say, gravity or electromagnetism, I'm not impressed.

 

[Sonofason]

It must be just the way in which I wrote it, sorry. The river may no longer exist as a flowing river, but that which was the river (the water) exists as something else. Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed, only change form, therefore nothing can truly ever cease to exist in some way, it can only cease to be a certain form...a river. That is what I meant. This is also one of the reasons why I don't believe in the whole "creation" thing.

Okay Runewolf, I understand what you meant.

I personally do not believe that matter cannot be created and destroyed. Simply because we have not witnessed anything like that taking place is certainly not a guarantee that it cannot take place. I believe God created matter. I believe He can destroy it. I have no idea if we will ever have the capacity and capability to do such things as God is capable of doing. We were not there when God created all matter, and so we cannot say with any absolute certainty that He did so. There is no reason to think that from the time that God created matter that any has been destroyed. Therefore we have not witnessed it happening. Maybe one day we will. And then we will know.

 

[Sonofason]

It may be enough for you to believe, but it is nowhere near enough to convince me that you are doing anything except speculating. Your "evidence" makes your idea a hypothesis--one that is not well supported by the evidence of chemistry, biology and physics. Until you can demonstrate the "life force" in a way similar to, say, gravity or electromagnetism, I'm not impressed.

Please tell me the evidence that you have that convinces you that the force of gravity actually exists.

 

[Marsh]

... Surely God is capable of creating elements with the ability to do whatever God commands them to do.

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so." (Genesis 1:11)
"And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good." (Genesis 1:12)

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life..." (Genesis 1:20)
"And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind:" (Genesis 1:21)

It is God who has created every living creature that has life. And He has apparently given earth and water the ability and responsibility to bring each one forth, each new creature, after its kind (evolution).

Sonofason, I take it from your quoting of the creation act in Genesis that you believe in the literal truth of this very old story, perhaps as old as the Bronze Age itself? You know, this is what started me on the path to atheism. I was ten years old and it occurred to me that there was a problem with the story of God bringing all the animals to Adam to be named. I imagined God setting a T-Rex before Adam and Adam yelling, "Get that thing away from me!" And I wondered why the Bible would have so many references to the lion and none to the T-Rex, which clearly could have eaten a lion for breakfast (yes, I was big into dinosaurs). Believing, as I did, that God brought forth all the living creatures in a single week, then surely there should be conspicuous mention, in the Bible, of the largest creatures that ever lived upon the Earth. This has never been a problem for you?

 

[Marsh]

I would not say anything magically pops into anything at all. God is the Omniscient, Omnipotent Creator and King of everything that exists. Surely God is capable of creating elements with the ability to do whatever God commands them to do.

My understanding is that when God speaks, things just magically happen. So when I read, "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind... and it was so," he didn't just sit himself down at a workbench and fashion all the different species from clay and then breath life into them, as he did with Adam, his Word was enough. Whole ecosystems just sprang into being. I know that Christian literalists don't like to think of God as employing magic as they think it trivializes their understanding of God, but this is what magic means at the god-level. God's voice is enough to pop anything into existence. Could it be any other way? The authors and redactors of Genesis, living as they did in the Bronze Age, had no other understanding to fall back upon. Now here you are, perhaps 3000 years later, taking Bronze Age men at their word? Tell me it's not so.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Please tell me the evidence that you have that convinces you that the force of gravity actually exists.

No, we're talking about your hypothesis of a "force" of life. Again, what is your evidence that YOU have that convinces you that this force of life actually exists?

My experience of gravity is backed by careful scientific study that has demonstrated that "gravity" exists (and can be interpreted as a "force," or as a curving of space-time due to the presence of mass). The sciences also validate my experience of electromagnetism. While I have not directly experience the strong and weak nuclear forces, I have experienced their outcomes--such as the radiation detected by a geiger counter.

I do observe and experience life, but as far as I have been able to learn, no one has ever isolated a "life force" separate from the known chemistry and physics of biology. So what is it's nature? Where does it come from? How do we measure it?

What is this life force that it only seems to work when there are complex carbon-based molecules with plenty of liquid water and within a fairly limited range of temperatures and other conditions? What is this life force doing the rest of the time, and why can't we detect it EXCEPT when there are complex chemicals and plenty of sunlight or other free energy to be captured by the living systems? Shouldn't this life force be present always and everywhere, like gravity, electromagnetism, etc.?