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What is life?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
We have all heard it said that life begins at conception. Is that really true?
It seems to me that the life I have is exactly the same life that my mother and father had. It seems to me that the life in me has existed long before it embodied me.
This word, "life" that I am referring to here is best described as the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body or inanimate object, and not to be confused with other meanings of the word life which might include "the period of duration, usefulness, or popularity of something", or "a specific phase of earthly existence"
If life is something that exists, how many exist?

The Law of ' cause and effect ' was set in motion by our Creator.
Life does Not come from non-life.
So, ones parents had to get their life from their parents, etc. going back to one of Noah's 3 sons then back to Adam. Adam son of God - Luke 3:38. God is Father ( life Giver)
At the moment of conception a person inherits 50% of his genes from each parent.
Therefore, there is No way by which a person can be 100% like anyone else who ever existed.
So, life exists because God is Not only Creator but Father (Life Giver) offering us individually ' everlasting life ' forever either in heaven for some, or for most will be life on Earth forever.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
No, we're talking about your hypothesis of a "force" of life. Again, what is your evidence that YOU have that convinces you that this force of life actually exists?

My experience of gravity is backed by careful scientific study that has demonstrated that "gravity" exists (and can be interpreted as a "force," or as a curving of space-time due to the presence of mass). The sciences also validate my experience of electromagnetism. While I have not directly experience the strong and weak nuclear forces, I have experienced their outcomes--such as the radiation detected by a geiger counter.

I do observe and experience life, but as far as I have been able to learn, no one has ever isolated a "life force" separate from the known chemistry and physics of biology. So what is it's nature? Where does it come from? How do we measure it?

What is this life force that it only seems to work when there are complex carbon-based molecules with plenty of liquid water and within a fairly limited range of temperatures and other conditions? What is this life force doing the rest of the time, and why can't we detect it EXCEPT when there are complex chemicals and plenty of sunlight or other free energy to be captured by the living systems? Shouldn't this life force be present always and everywhere, like gravity, electromagnetism, etc.?


Seems pretty obvious that life is not a force, nor is it fundamental to the rest of existence. Life is merely a possible outcome given enough time and the right conditions.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Sonofason, I take it from your quoting of the creation act in Genesis that you believe in the literal truth of this very old story, perhaps as old as the Bronze Age itself?

I suggest it is a matter of perception. Bronze Age human beings were actually smarter than we are, yet for some reason I detect a tone of sarcasm in your statement, as if you think that you are somehow superior to Bronze Age human beings. I assure you that is not the case. We are not superior to Bronze Age people. Yes they existed quite a long time ago, but they were smarter and wiser than us. Their brain capacity was larger than ours. Our brains are now shrinking. We're getting dumber. They were smarter.

You know, this is what started me on the path to atheism. I was ten years old and it occurred to me that there was a problem with the story of God bringing all the animals to Adam to be named. I imagined God setting a T-Rex before Adam and Adam yelling, "Get that thing away from me!"

It seems to me you've let your imagination get the best of you. I have no idea why you would perceive from the Biblical texts that Bronze Age people coexisted with dinosaurs. But I do understand how trusting in one's imagination could lead someone to such an illogical conclusion.

And I wondered why the Bible would have so many references to the lion and none to the T-Rex, which clearly could have eaten a lion for breakfast (yes, I was big into dinosaurs). Believing, as I did, that God brought forth all the living creatures in a single week, then surely there should be conspicuous mention, in the Bible, of the largest creatures that ever lived upon the Earth. This has never been a problem for you?
Sure, I read it too. The Bible says that God created everything in seven days. In this day and age I think it is quite natural to jump to the conclusion that seven days means seven 24 hour days. But when you are reading text that is over 2,000 years old, it is very unwise to assume that you actually understand at first glance what is being said. When we read ancient text, I think it is of fundamental importance to employ critical thinking and reasoning. We ought not assume that we understand anything. Words change. The meanings of words change. The usages of words change over time. Only a few decades ago it would be perfectly acceptable to burn a fagot in the fireplace to keep you warm at night. If you did that today you would be incarcerated for the crime of first degree murder. Now just consider the changes in words and the meanings of words that have occurred over the centuries and millenniums since the Bible was written.

Let me define three words for you.
day - A period of time in history; an era (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/day)
morning - a period of first development : Beginning (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/morning)
- the first or early period of anything; beginning: (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/morning)
evening - the latter portion (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evening)
- the latter or concluding period: the evening of one's life. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evening)
twilight - of or relating to the final phase of a particular era (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/twilight)

I included the word twilight because it is synonymous to the word evening. Several years ago, I had looked up the word day and also found the definition "a time of light". I no longer see that.

Parts of the Bible were written in "Biblical Hebrew", and other parts written in Aramaic. There are translation issues. There are lexicographical issues. There are cultural issues. There is no way anyone is capable of understanding the Bible as it was written. But we surely can gain insight into it's author's intentions.

Now, I'm not suggesting that God is not capable of creating the entire universe in just 7 days. I'm guessing He could do it in one day. And I'm not suggesting that the definitions I have given here for the words day, morning, and evening accurately depict the intentions of the author that wrote those words either. But I submit them to you that you might recognize that our perceptions of what the author intended when he wrote what he wrote could easily be perceived inaccurately by each and every one of us.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that when God speaks, things just magically happen. So when I read, "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind... and it was so," he didn't just sit himself down at a workbench and fashion all the different species from clay and then breath life into them, as he did with Adam, his Word was enough. Whole ecosystems just sprang into being. I know that Christian literalists don't like to think of God as employing magic as they think it trivializes their understanding of God, but this is what magic means at the god-level. God's voice is enough to pop anything into existence. Could it be any other way? The authors and redactors of Genesis, living as they did in the Bronze Age, had no other understanding to fall back upon. Now here you are, perhaps 3000 years later, taking Bronze Age men at their word? Tell me it's not so.
I believe they believed what they wrote. So yes, I take them at their word. And then I contemplate on what they were attempting to convey, and try to come to a reasonable conclusion. If the conclusion is reasonable to me, and I am convinced that what the author said is true, then I believe it. If I should receive other strong evidence that supports their claims, I can reasonably know that what they said is true.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
No, we're talking about your hypothesis of a "force" of life. Again, what is your evidence that YOU have that convinces you that this force of life actually exists?

My experience of gravity is backed by careful scientific study that has demonstrated that "gravity" exists (and can be interpreted as a "force," or as a curving of space-time due to the presence of mass). The sciences also validate my experience of electromagnetism. While I have not directly experience the strong and weak nuclear forces, I have experienced their outcomes--such as the radiation detected by a geiger counter.

I do observe and experience life, but as far as I have been able to learn, no one has ever isolated a "life force" separate from the known chemistry and physics of biology. So what is it's nature? Where does it come from? How do we measure it?

What is this life force that it only seems to work when there are complex carbon-based molecules with plenty of liquid water and within a fairly limited range of temperatures and other conditions? What is this life force doing the rest of the time, and why can't we detect it EXCEPT when there are complex chemicals and plenty of sunlight or other free energy to be captured by the living systems? Shouldn't this life force be present always and everywhere, like gravity, electromagnetism, etc.?
Where does gravity come from? Gravity is predictable. So is life. I can reasonably predict that that which is alive will consume food and energy. It will undergo metabolism. It will have the ability to reproduce. Life forms will grow old, and they will die.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Seems pretty obvious that life is not a force, nor is it fundamental to the rest of existence. Life is merely a possible outcome given enough time and the right conditions.
Tell me what is so fundamental about gravity to the rest of existence? Perhaps gravity is merely a possible outcome given enough time and the right conditions. Honestly, it doesn't seem like you're saying anything substantial here. What is the source of gravity?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
The Law of ' cause and effect ' was set in motion by our Creator.
Life does Not come from non-life.
So, ones parents had to get their life from their parents, etc. going back to one of Noah's 3 sons then back to Adam. Adam son of God - Luke 3:38. God is Father ( life Giver)
At the moment of conception a person inherits 50% of his genes from each parent.
Therefore, there is No way by which a person can be 100% like anyone else who ever existed.
So, life exists because God is Not only Creator but Father (Life Giver) offering us individually ' everlasting life ' forever either in heaven for some, or for most will be life on Earth forever.
Amen, and finally someone has given us the source of life. Well done.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Where does gravity come from? Gravity is predictable. So is life. I can reasonably predict that that which is alive will consume food and energy. It will undergo metabolism. It will have the ability to reproduce. Life forms will grow old, and they will die.
In what sense is life predictable? In such a general way as to be meaningless..."that which is alive will consume food and energy. It will undergo metabolism. It will have the ability to reproduce. Life forms will grow old, and they will die." That is pretty much the definition of what is living, so you're predicting through definition.

Gravity comes from the presence of mass, which is a property of "particles" such as protons, and electrons imparted by their interaction with the Higgs Field, though the Higgs particle. Electromagnetism is other properties of particles, including photons. These properties are detected and measured under all kinds of conditions in all sorts of environment, including those that have living things, and those that do not have living things.

Your proposed life force must act in a very different way from the other forces and particles that science has found. There are no known particles or fields involved--except those involving gravity, electromagnetism, the known physical properties of the particles, etc.

Frankly, your "life force" sounds an awful lot like the old proposed "orgone energy," or "psychic energy," or "spiritual energy," and lots of other proposed kinds of energy and forces that have not been introduced over the years but not verified through systematic observation and testing.

Gravity has been demonstrated, tested, and is pretty well understood. Gravity is not at all like life, in that it affects ALL matter, all the time, in exactly the same way...not just complex organic compounds when they are living and suddenly stop when they cease to be living. The matter that "has" gravity does not lose it if doesn't eat, doesn't create more gravity by reproducing...
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Amen, and finally someone has given us the source of life. Well done.
Oh Boy! An undetectable life force, originating in a deity that cannot be verified...:confused:o_O:rolleyes:

Yep! You've convinced me! Why look for any evidence when pure unadulterated reason, untroubled by any mere observation or testing, can get you to the conclusion you wanted all along? Don't let any facts get in the way!:eek:

Well, I'm done here; I made the mistake of thinking you really wanted to discuss the nature of life, when all you really wanted was to come up with something to reinforce your already-existing belief.
 
This is amazing!

I believe we have just witnessed the genesis of an idea that will win the Nobel Prize! No, really!

Philosophers for thousands of years, and scientists for a few hundred years, have been trying to decide what life is, and here in just five days we've seen someone--with only a little feedback from other non-experts--determine that life is REALLY a force (apparently like gravity, electromagentism, and the weak and strong nuclear forces) and not just an emergent property of matter under certain conditions, or a description of a very complex chemical and energetic phenomenon...No, LIFE IS A FORCE, and we know this because Sonofason just thought it up because he didn't like any of the suggests anyone else provided and of course he knows more than all the biologists in the world.

So--you have just asserted that life is a force, weak or strong (whatever that means). How are you going to go about proving it? Got any data to show that there is something identifiable that can be detected independently? You gonna submit this idea for publication in Science or Nature? Going to to get any feedback from, say, biologists or chemists or physicists who study life and living systems?

[Personally, I hope you are just trying to being humorous here, so that we can both just laugh about how silly all this is. If you are serious, however, I think you are very silly to assert that you have solved the question, "What is life?"]

No, someone else beat him to this theory, a long, long, time ago.....


 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Tell me what is so fundamental about gravity to the rest of existence? Perhaps gravity is merely a possible outcome given enough time and the right conditions. Honestly, it doesn't seem like you're saying anything substantial here. What is the source of gravity?

What is fundamental about gravity is the fact that it is present everywhere even at the atomic level. Without gravity there would be no planets, no stars, no you or I. Life is not vital or fundamental to the existence of the universe, gravity is. The right conditions for life would never come about without gravity.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Nothing can go on without some sort of interaction...fundamental interaction. The act of "going on" or continuing in some way after death requires an interaction of sorts, therefore you can never really escape physics or chemistry. Not that I believe any of this, but what would your spirit be doing if you were to say go to heaven after you died? Well perhaps you would be interacting with God in some way. Hmmm...divine chemistry...I never thought of that before.
in this life ....
I write ....you read
I speak....you listen
and the same in return

in the next life communication is far more 'personal'
interaction is of mind and heart....spirit

if I spend a year with one after another....
and many of us might survive the last breath...
I will be busy for a VERY long time

(and let's not misconstrue the tense of definition I am using about ....time)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The origin of the force of life is in your head. It's called imagination.
so you exist....not that you think so....
but you imagine that you do....

and the 7billion others on this planet are just your illusion?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
My understanding is that when God speaks, things just magically happen. So when I read, "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after its kind... and it was so," he didn't just sit himself down at a workbench and fashion all the different species from clay and then breath life into them, as he did with Adam, his Word was enough. Whole ecosystems just sprang into being. I know that Christian literalists don't like to think of God as employing magic as they think it trivializes their understanding of God, but this is what magic means at the god-level. God's voice is enough to pop anything into existence. Could it be any other way? The authors and redactors of Genesis, living as they did in the Bronze Age, had no other understanding to fall back upon. Now here you are, perhaps 3000 years later, taking Bronze Age men at their word? Tell me it's not so.
Let it be....is not a magic trick
I say ....evolution is how God did it
all of it.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Seems pretty obvious that life is not a force, nor is it fundamental to the rest of existence. Life is merely a possible outcome given enough time and the right conditions.
an event without 'force'....?

granted, conditions and coincidence count for something
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
an event without 'force'....?

granted, conditions and coincidence count for something

There are always forces involved in everything, but no definable "life force", rather it is the result of various Fundamental Forces working in tandem which bring about the conditions necessary for life.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
in this life ....
I write ....you read
I speak....you listen
and the same in return

in the next life communication is far more 'personal'
interaction is of mind and heart....spirit

if I spend a year with one after another....
and many of us might survive the last breath...
I will be busy for a VERY long time

(and let's not misconstrue the tense of definition I am using about ....time)

Either way, it will be some manner of interaction.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
We have all heard it said that life begins at conception. Is that really true?
It seems to me that the life I have is exactly the same life that my mother and father had. It seems to me that the life in me has existed long before it embodied me.

This word, "life" that I am referring to here is best described as the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body or inanimate object, and not to be confused with other meanings of the word life which might include "the period of duration, usefulness, or popularity of something", or "a specific phase of earthly existence"

If life is something that exists, how many exist?


Why do you limit life to being only on one planet? There are billions of planets.

Your life is distinct from your father's and mother's life. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
 
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