What is more important for the future well-being of humankind: Faith or Reason?

[Revoltingest]

understood, i just feel without them, we would not be having this conversation since i survived pneumonia 3 times.

Pneumonia really blows goats! I had it once. That was enuf.
A friend just died from it in Sept 1.

 

[Jeremiah]

History is marked by wickedness born out of faith far more often then compassion born out of faith.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

History is marked by wickedness born out of faith far more often then compassion born out of faith.

During Christmas I see examples of compassion in spite of reason, more than enough to cover the entire year preceding. What I have found is that many people tend to dismiss such acts as reasonable, despite evidence to the contrary. They tell me 'Well, it's Christmas. You're supposed to do that kind of stuff.'
To me, that's special pleading.
I don't know if you use the same argument, but it seems to be very common in my experience.
Faith is what drives us to do certain things during the Christmas season, things that seem to be absent until the season comes around.

 

[Jeremiah]

During Christmas I see examples of compassion in spite of reason, more than enough to cover the entire year preceding. What I have found is that many people tend to dismiss such acts as reasonable, despite evidence to the contrary. They tell me 'Well, it's Christmas. You're supposed to do that kind of stuff.'
To me, that's special pleading.
I don't know if you use the same argument, but it seems to be very common in my experience.
Faith is what drives us to do certain things during the Christmas season, things that seem to be absent until the season comes around.

"Faith is what drives us to do certain things"

You are right it does.....

But at least we get a few Christmas cheers out of it, one day out of the year.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

"Faith is what drives us to do certain things"


But at least we get a few Christmas cheers out of it, one day out of the year.

Does Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean anything to you? Does slavery? Products of logic.

If you want to play games like this, and pick out all the bad things faith did, I can pick out just as many that reason did.

Honestly, I'm not going to play your little game. So when you're ready to stop pointing fingers, we can talk.

 

[Jeremiah]

Does Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean anything to you? Does slavery? Products of logic.

If you want to play games like this, and pick out all the bad things faith did, I can pick out just as many that reason did.

Honestly, I'm not going to play your little game. So when you're ready to stop pointing fingers, we can talk.

"Does Hiroshima and Nagasaki mean anything to you?"

Does read the thread mean anything to you? I am already made a comment on that.

"Does slavery?"

Slavery, if you knew anything about history, was mainly do to greed and it was often sanctioned by religion.

 

[strikeviperMKII]

"Does slavery?"

Slavery, if you knew anything about history, was mainly do to greed and it was often sanctioned by religion.

By logic as well. You're missing the point here. Logic and faith can both be used to support ANYTHING you want them to. Just think about it a little. With the right premise, you can make any conclusion you want. To say otherwise is illogical.

 

[Jeremiah]

By logic as well. You're missing the point here. Logic and faith can both be used to support ANYTHING you want them to. Just think about it a little. With the right premise, you can make any conclusion you want. To say otherwise is illogical.

" You're missing the point here."

You are the one missing point. Religious faith is willful ingorance, diligent reasoning is willful enlightenment. They are not the same, they are not equals, reasons is a better path then faith.

"be used to support ANYTHING you want them to."

Prudent reasoning will not support anything you want it to. In fact often times it supports what you don't want it to. And people tend to ignore it when that happens, they turn to faith when reason doesn't give them the answers they want to hear.

"With the right premise, you can make any conclusion you want."

You can bull-crap, lie, delude/confuse yourself and others, but you can not just draw any conclusion you want and have it be in accordance with good, sound reasoning.

 

[Jeremiah]

The great cop-out of the believer is to try and equalize everything. Claiming that the errors in their methods are justifiable because everything is equal.

 

[Willamena]

"Faith is what drives us to do certain things"

You are right it does.....

That was politics.

 

[Magic Man]

You're wrong.
Reason: bacon

This could possibly be the best argument I've ever heard. I might have to apply this to other debates that come up.

 

[Magic Man]

I stand by the fact that Mother Teresa did what she did out of faith in God your assement that she did it out of compassion has no proof. Read the book and you will see.

I don't have to read the book. You're missing my point. She did what she did due to her compassion and desire to help people. She can attribute that to her God all she wants, but it's not really true. I'm supremely confident she would have gone around helping people had she not had faith in God.

You do realize that antibiotics have negative results as well as good. In fact everything thing produced through reason or anything results in good and bad outcomes.

Sure, just like marriage has negative things, too, as does having kids. I think we'd all agree that, regardless of the problems antibiotics can cause, overall they're a very good thing to have.

But to be honest I am not challenging reason I believe it very important, unlike you ;however, I believe faith to be equally important. Maybe some day you'll understand.

I already understand. What I understand is that you're still not getting it. You have yet to provide something faith has given us. Saying "This person helped people because she had faith in God" doesn't cut it. She didn't need faith to do that, and there are plenty of people who do it without having faith.

 

[Magic Man]

During Christmas I see examples of compassion in spite of reason, more than enough to cover the entire year preceding. What I have found is that many people tend to dismiss such acts as reasonable, despite evidence to the contrary. They tell me 'Well, it's Christmas. You're supposed to do that kind of stuff.'
To me, that's special pleading.
I don't know if you use the same argument, but it seems to be very common in my experience.
Faith is what drives us to do certain things during the Christmas season, things that seem to be absent until the season comes around.

No. Compassion is what drives people to do certain things during the holidays. Giving to someone less fortunate or helping someone who needs it isn't a matter of faith. If anything, you can justify it with reason, saying maybe one day the person will be in a position to help you. But compassion is the true cause of that, not faith.

 

[bhaktajan]

No No No No No No NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!


please, come back to reality, come on in the water is fine

This is a very exhausting, it's a killer of a subject.

We are biological animals ["anima" is the latin word for "soul"].

World peace will come via poetic musings of well read people? Is that everyones ideal?

"Turn your swords to plowshares" = "Stop warring by growing sublime"
.......................................................

Why do people look past the obvious blood/sweat/bones and grotesqueness?????

A diet of meat-stuffs [cooked or un-cooked/cured or processed or thickened or from rejects like retarded/vacinated/lame/old farm stock] ---all adds to hardened-Hearts extraordinaire . . . along with the onset of mass-popular sickness, ie:

Acidity interior body chemistry, IOW, de-nuded foodstuffs eaten as substitues for one's vital organ fuel, like: Vitamins & Minerals. Ergo, NO Immunity from mycotoxins that will proliferate in one's body's acidic state, caused by eating {esp meat(s)} modern day mafia food. Everybody wants to be a Tony Soprano or at least a dictator of their own homeland ---yet we are pawns.

The holiday gatherings to "show the love" ---is awash in future Bad (funky) Karma.
This was the Future karma that layed ahead for "the greatest Generation".

It's so nice & poignant to wax sweet dreams, isn't it?

The holiday gatherings to "show the love" ---are society's "Elephants' Bath" . . . an Elephant bathes by emersing it's self into a lake or pond . . . and then, walks ashore and covers itself with mud.
thus,
The holiday gatherings to "show the love" is similar to "The frog in the water well" . . . a frog thinks that the whole world is his water well, and that's all there is to the world, this frog is indeed content with the status quo.

One last word [thanks to mother Teresa types]:
When a human achieves SUPREME SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT . . . one sees all his friends neighbors and sub=human creatures and politicians and daily world events & headlines and The beautiful people too as:
"enjoying and suffering" while causing further "enjoying and suffering" repeatedly ---haplessly without any attempt to change the status quo.

Giving to someone less fortunate or helping someone who needs it isn't a matter of faith. If anything, you can justify it with reason, saying maybe one day the person will be in a position to help you. But compassion is the true cause of . . . WORLD PEACE?

A bank robber who donates a part of his booty to charity ---is so "Compassionate" that no Court Judge would think to punish the robber? This is especially true when the Court Judge would be 'on-the-take'.

Objective & absolute reality tells one when there is a problem; otherwise the status quo is what Sargent Schultz says: "I know nothing, I see nothing, I say nothing".

:::::::::::::::::::::::
Thanks Mataji for this one:
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference (Elie Wiesel).

 

[Willamena]

She did what she did due to her compassion and desire to help people. She can attribute that to her God all she wants, but it's not really true. I'm supremely confident she would have gone around helping people had she not had faith in God.

To what do you attribute this statement of faith?

 

[gnomon]

I would like to back bobhikes assertion that Mother Teresa was motivated by faith. I have no problem with the idea that she was not motivated by compassion.

 

[Gloone]

This is a terrible list of options for a poll. Where is the one for reasonable faith and faithful reasoning?

 

[Reverend Rick]

If a person was to use only reason, it would make a good case that we all are doomed to failure.

Just about all great civilizations of the past failed.

Faith in a better tomorrow is key to having a positive attitude in life.

 

[Revoltingest]

If a person was to use only reason, it would make a good case that we all are doomed to failure.
Just about all great civilizations of the past failed.

That looks inevitable....& ever more likely these days.

Faith in a better tomorrow is key to having a positive attitude in life.

Instead of "faith in a better tomorrow", I get by with "expectation of a better tomorrow".

 

[gnomon]

This is a terrible list of options for a poll. Where is the one for reasonable faith and faithful reasoning?

Well, given that no one ever defined which meanings of the terms we are to use in this debate I think it's fair game. So you can just choose your own meanings and vote accordingly.

But someone's already taken bacon.