What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[madhatter85]

You claimed the arguments listed against the lds church were debunked, then you provide no evidence for you statement. Faith is not evidence. I'll take it from this post that you are unable to back up your cliam. Faith is not evidence.

I never said Faith was the evidence. The evidences are what grant me the faith to believe in the Book of Mormon.

You must be really confused to believe evidences are the same as proof.

 

[lightgirl]

This is exactly what I've been saying. I simply cannot believe the BoM is true because it is not verified by archeological or anthropological evidence.

Mormons and I have no troubles about the Bible. We both believe it is divinely inspired canonized scripture, 100% true and error free through and through. Just as the Bible has inspired me and changed my life, I believe Mormons are sincere when they say the same thing about the BoM, but for me, peace and inspiration alone cannot prove historicity.

I have a question for you: How do you respond to things that are considered modern miracles--for example, someone survives a car crash against what the laws of science dictate, or someone goes in and gets diagnosed with cancer, has proof of it on CT scans, blood work. Then, they go in an it is completely gone--they have no trace of cancer? That said, if certain things happen in life that are true but cannot be proved or explained, isn't it also possible that the Book of Mormon can be true as manifest by God?

 

[lightgirl]

The book of mormon was conjured from Smith's immagination. There is no evidence to support your claim of 'reformed' egyptian.

How could a man with practically no formal education create a text that is consistent with semetic language; how could someone who has never been in battle so accurately describe the nature and happenings in war? There are many more things I could say to refute your claim, but the most important for me personally is that God has witnessed to me of it's truth. That is evidence enough for me. If that is not sufficient for you, meaning that God has the power to witness of divine truth to you, me and the whole world, then we are at an impasse--and that is okay.

 

[lightgirl]

lightgirl, it's not reasonable to think nephi ever lived. let alone had a copy of the bible. As Auto pointed out several pages back, there has been nothing to substantiate the idea that this society ever existed. No native amercian legends speak to this, no genetics can confrim this, no archeological evidence has been found to support it, etc etc. Everything we know about this continant tells us the BoM is fiction.

First of all, I said that Nephi had the writings of Isaiah, and that yes that is possible. And second, there have been LOTS of people that have lived on the earth that I suppose would fit into your category of "not existing" because what you are wanting in terms of proof or evidence. How do we know that Jesus healed the blind man? Do we evidence of his eye exam? You see where I am going with this. The written word and the testimony of the men who handled and saw the gold plates that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon from are evidences themselves.

 

[madhatter85]

You provided the quote, not a link. A link would include that little blue box by your name that when you click on it, it takes you to the post. Read it.

Since you are clearly unable to click links within any of my previous posts and desire to have me quote the original so that you have a little blue button to click here you go:

Would a con-artist find solace in scriptural passages they fabricated from whole cloth when they are about to be killed?
Safety for the Soul

When Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum started for Carthage to face what they knew would be an imminent martyrdom, Hyrum read these words to comfort the heart of his brother: “Thou hast been faithful; wherefore . . . thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.
“And now I, Moroni, bid farewell . . . until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ.”7
A few short verses from the 12th chapter of Ether in the Book of Mormon. Before closing the book, Hyrum turned down the corner of the page from which he had read, marking it as part of the everlasting testimony for which these two brothers were about to die. I hold in my hand that book, the very copy from which Hyrum read, the same corner of the page turned down, still visible. Later, when actually incarcerated in the jail, Joseph the Prophet turned to the guards who held him captive and bore a powerful testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon.8 Shortly thereafter pistol and ball would take the lives of these two testators.

I ask you: would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation on a book (and by implication a church and a ministry) they had fictitiously created out of whole cloth? Never mind that their wives are about to be widows and their children fatherless. Never mind that their little band of followers will yet be “houseless, friendless and homeless” and that their children will leave footprints of blood across frozen rivers and an untamed prairie floor.9 Never mind that legions will die and other legions live declaring in the four quarters of this earth that they know the Book of Mormon and the Church which espouses it to be true. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death these two men would enter the presence of their Eternal Judge quoting from and finding solace in a book which, if not the very word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatans until the end of time? They would not do that! They were willing to die rather than deny the divine origin and the eternal truthfulness of the Book of Mormon..

Now please provide your response.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm so sick of this thread and of people trashing my beliefs I could scream.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I feel inclined to try and step into the fray again, but certainly in more generalistic terms, I feel in fundamental terms we are simply dancing around the obvious.

If I were inclined to view the evidence of the LDS faith, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in a purely academic light (and I have been periodically inclined to do so), there is no doubt in my mind I would not find it compelling enough to entertain the notion of joining the church. Thus I have sympathy, even empathy, for those inclined to view the church with a sceptical mind. The extraordinary claims do not have much in the way of support.

The fact of the matter is that the testimonies of the members here are rooted in a spiritual experience, or experiences, that make us liable to view all criticisms of the church in a hugely sympathetic way towards the conclusion we have reached by what we believe to be personal revelation. This does not deny us all sense of objectivity, it simply means that when all things are weighed up, those arguments and evidences that combine to give some strength to the claims of the church, though insufficient to create any convincing proof for the sceptic, are enough, combined with spiritual experience, to amount to a conviction of religious belief. And conversely, those criticisms which seem to a sceptic damning are given the benefit of the doubt.

That is, in essence, the core of all belief conservation that I don't think any individual is entirely capable of escaping from.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

How could a man with practically no formal education create a text that is consistent with semetic language;

By this notion you should be a Muslin. Muslims say Muhammad could not read nor right but the Quran was given to him and he was ordered to read.

And for your information...the text in question are not what you think they are. In fact they appear to be no more than a mixture and tweaking of known script with some "Ancient Irish" lettering thrown in.

If you have a "Qualified Egyptologist" outside of the Mormon church corroborating these to be "reformed" Egyptian or a variant of earlier Egyptian script then I'm all ears. If you don't then your claim is baseless.

how could someone who has never been in battle so accurately describe the nature and happenings in war?

Ever read Greek Mythology?....It's very easy to right stories like that. The interesting thing is...we know what he wrote to be fiction because NO archeological evidence has been brought forward to substantiate the claim made by the BoM. I don't know of a any archeologist outside of the church of Mormon who agrees with the notion of such battles with impressive weaponry and knowledge of metallurgy who lived in large cities let alone any ancient writings from any North American Indian tribe or South American tribal writings confirming the existence of these people...let alone mentioning any of them by name.

There are many more things I could say to refute your claim,

Talk is cheap...unless you have verifiable evidence by scholars, archeologist etc...outside of the Mormon church then you really have....nothing...

but the most important for me personally is that God has witnessed to me of it's truth.

Oh...we should just take your word on this even though you're completely wrong on everything you've just asserted.....

That is evidence enough for me. If that is not sufficient for you, meaning that God has the power to witness of divine truth to you, me and the whole world, then we are at an impasse--and that is okay.

.....Okay...so what you really mean is...'I have nothing....'

 

[jabberwockybruno]

I have a question for you: How do you respond to things that are considered modern miracles--for example, someone survives a car crash against what the laws of science dictate, or someone goes in and gets diagnosed with cancer, has proof of it on CT scans, blood work. Then, they go in an it is completely gone--they have no trace of cancer? That said, if certain things happen in life that are true but cannot be proved or explained, isn't it also possible that the Book of Mormon can be true as manifest by God?

That argument does not make sense. Consider this:
First, let's assume I say that many centuries ago, the roman empire built a wall in Britannia to defend its northern frontier lines. If I'm to have any chance of being believed, then I better find some remnants of a wall somewhere, and I have to figure out how a wall could be built in that region.

Now let's assume I say that many centuries ago, in Britannia, a wall miraculously appears out of thin air. Well now I don't need to explain how it could be built--that's why it's a miracle! But I still better find some remnants of it if I'm to have any credibility. Miracle or not, there should be a wall to be found.


This topic has gone round and round in this thread. Opponents say there is NO evidence of historicity in the Book of Mormon (besides good feelings and happy lives) and Mormons have no substantial answer of refute. Getting kind of boring.

 

[Humanistheart]

I never said Faith was the evidence. The evidences are what grant me the faith to believe in the Book of Mormon.

Then I'll once again ask you to stop ignoring the question and list that evidence. Assuming there is any to list as you claim.

 

[jabberwockybruno]

Then I'll once again ask you to stop ignoring the question and list that evidence. Assuming there is any to list as you claim.

There is none, and that is why we're approaching 500 posts on this particular discussion.

You and I say "show archeological/anthropological verification from secular sources"

And the response is "The proof is that it makes my life better and a lot of people really believe in it."

And the counter is "That's not what I asked for"

...........


What more can be said? There is no question that the book is inspiring and changes lives. But happy feelings and changed lives are not proof that a book is historically accurate.

We'll just continue saying the same things and soon we'll be on post number 1,000

 

[XenMonkey]

I love this debate.
I was born and raised LDS. We read the BoM every morning. We deeply studied the Pearl of Great Price as well as The Doctrine and Covenants. This with long additional study in the Bible. I went to seminary the entire time I was in school. I was even looking forward to going on a mission like my brother before me. My father is part of his local Bishopric, and my mother is head of the Relief Society. 100% Mormon.
But as I learned more about this world my doubts of the religion(s) grew. When I was 16 I was enrolled into a private school and I took a class on world religions. That's when I realized that it couldn't possibly be true. When I went to college with extensive classes in the sciences, it all fell away completely, for all religions.
Science can prove, through substantial amounts of physical evidence, that the BoM simply isn't true (the Bible as well but I'll save that for another discussion). Anthropology, archeology, biology, genetics, geology, histology, etc. They all point the other direction. It's overwhelming! Nephi never existed, Lehi never existed, Mormon never existed. At least not in the way the BoM describes.
Joseph Smith may have had good intentions, but what he wrote was a work of total fiction. But I must admit that it is a much easier read than the Bible is.

Scientology is basically based around the same motivation as the Mormon church.

"The way to make a million dollars is to start a religion."
-L Ron Hubbard

 

[Humanistheart]

If you look in the post there is a hyperlink to the original post. actually there are two, and the 3rd hyperlink takes you to the original where i quoted it from. Don't be daft.

There was no link in the post I responded to. Be my guest and check.

 

[Humanistheart]

*edit* People have already posted plenty of evidences for the Book of Mormon.

And has a single one not been countered? If so, please list it.

 

[Humanistheart]

Are you going to explain why these event took place?

You make a lot of assumptions with this example. First of all, that this story is true. Perhaps you can list sources. Second, you ask why a man would blaspheme before god and their 'eternal salvation' on the BoM if it was fictionally created. So I'll ask you, why would it be surprising to you that a man that sett up a religion that esentially revolved around him as a prophet, a religion that allows him multiple wives and afforded him great influence, would try this same con one last time? Would it have saved him from prison or death if he'd confessed the truth in the end? No. And I dare-say a man that has no problem doing these things either does not believe in god or fear his wrath, or is quite insane.

Then you go on for a few lines with 'never mind' followed by some new issue. For instance, the mention of blood across frozen rivers. Many of the things you describe, I can only assume, are from the mormon trek to Utah, which did not occur untill 1846, two years after Smith's death. Since this move was not planned while smith was alive, I'm curious to know why these things you mentioned would be heavy on his mind?

These men would not be the first to die for a false religion. Or perhaps you believe there really is a band of people riding a commit right now to paradise?

That fact is, your examples stand for no evidence or proof. There are many explanations, most of which would be mere conjecture on either side.

 

[madhatter85]

You make a lot of assumptions with this example. First of all, that this story is true. Perhaps you can list sources. Second, you ask why a man would blaspheme before god and their 'eternal salvation' on the BoM if it was fictionally created. So I'll ask you, why would it be surprising to you that a man that setting up a religion that esentially revolved around him as a prophet, a religion that allows him multiple wives and afforded him great influence, would try this same con one last time? Would it have saved him from prison or death if he'd confessed the truth in the end? No. And I darsay a man that has no problem doing these things either does not believe in god or fear his rath, or is quite insane.

Then you go on for a few lines with 'never mind' followed by some new issue. For instance, the mention of blood across frozen rivers. Many of the things you describe, I can only assume, are from the mormon trek to Utah, which did not occur untill 1846, two years after Smith's deaths. Since this move was not planned while smith was alive, I'm curious to know why these things you mentioned would be heavy on his mind?

These men would not be the first to die for a false religion. Or perhaps you believe there really is a band of people riding a commit right now to paradise?

That fact is, your example stand for no evidence or proof. There are many explanations, most of which would be mere conjecture on either side.

And this is why we will discontinue this conversation. You are not here to learn, you are just here to judge and to try vainly to bring something down that is so beautiful it frightens you to the very core that it might be true. You constantly belittle us and are deliberately ignorant of what we LDS have said in regards to your false claims and ridiculous assertions. Good day sir. you are now the 2nd person on my ignore list, right next to Auto :beach:

 

[Humanistheart]

And this is why we will discontinue this conversation. You are not here to learn, you are just here to judge and to try vainly to bring something down that is so beautiful it frightens you to the very core that it might be true. You constantly belittle us and are deliberately ignorant of what we LDS have said in regards to your false claims and ridiculous assertions. Good day sir. you are now the 2nd person on my ignore list, right next to Auto :beach:

Sure. That's it. It has nothing to do with your inability to offer a defence or provide the evidence you claimed was there. False claims? Let me know when one of you actually proves that. Vainly? The BoM looks pretty well debunked at this point, so I'd say look up the definition of vainly.

 

[jabberwockybruno]

Sure. That's it. It has nothing to do with your inability to offer a defence or provide the evidence you claimed was there. False claims? Let me know when one of you actually proves that. Vainly? The BoM looks pretty well debunked at this point, so I'd say look up the definition of vainly.

Debunked. Yes, exactly, debunked regarding historicity. What more need be said?

It still inspires people and changes lives but that's not the purpose of this thread.

I'm wondering if the atheists participating in this discussion have actually read the Book of Mormon?

I'm just wondering. I have, and I plan to read Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and three early church publications; Messenger and Advocate, Times and Seasons, and Evening and Morning Star.
I ask critical questions as I learn about the religion

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm wondering if the atheists participating in this discussion have actually read the Book of Mormon?

Please......

Give us some credit at least....There are some on this forum...even in this thread who used to be Mormon. I personally am not....but a lot of us have read the book..as well as your bible and the quran.....

You've read it... Now that you been told Yeshua (Jesus) spoke to people in this land...do you believe it? We are familiar with western history as well as the history of South America and when we research the claims of the BoM we find no corroboration for the claims made.

I'm just wondering. I have, and I plan to read Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and three early church publications; Messenger and Advocate, Times and Seasons, and Evening and Morning Star.
I ask critical questions as I learn about the religion

There are better thing you can do with your time.....

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Notice
I think it is time for the LDS members, and those with an open mind, to stop replying to, and feeding the Hampsters.
The detractors, are like the sick and are always with us.​