Madhatter 85 I know I’m out of sync with this thread, but I’m so busy I could not get to comment when I wanted to.
The conversation regarding Smith’s possible character (which no one really knows) reminds me of the exact same debates that took place anciently regarding the ancient prophets (who are certainly well-respected among orthodoxy, and still dis-respected among those believing they were not prophets). I do NOT see any reason why Smith will avoid the exact same controversies.
I have wondered if it is even possible to prove or disprove someone was a prophet based on such “perceived hypocrisy” since various histories record that many ancient prophets did things that seemed strange and hypocritical given their position to receive revelation.
For examples : The Prophet Moses becomes a “murderer” long before his calling (i.e. killing the egyptian task-master); Moses relates the law to Israel not to marry outside of Israel, yet he married an Ethiopian against the prohibition (even Aaron and Miriam take him to task for this (1) ). Moses commands not to make a graven image and then himself makes a graven image of a snake on the rod whom he invites Israel to look to in order to be healed. And yet he becomes angry at Israel for a similar action. (2) Barnabas, before it was removed from the provisional New Testament, points out that without knowledge of the underlying reason for Moses actions, they do not seem reasonable.(3) This is what we lack, the data, underlying the history. The same is true of any prophet. One main problem is that this underlying knowledge is what we cannot have. Thus we are in the position of either making a decision on insufficient and provisional data, OR, heaven forbid, suspending a firm decision as to what we will believe and admitting that we don't know. A condemnation is simply too tempting to make.
The great Abraham, the father of all three nations seems like a proud, almost “snotty” youth in decrying idol worship among his own citizens; later, he is willing to “murder” his own son Isaac (which is part of the very thing he so vehemently decried when he was a youth). For these reasons, it does NOT surprise me (nor even bother me) to have an enormous amount of controversy surrounding Smith, as there have always BEEN controversy surrounding ancient characters who were considered Prophets. For example : It does NOT bother me that a controversial figure such as Smith has a jail record any more than if Martin Luther King and other black trying to win basic human rights had jail records.
Yet, both sides have their logic. King’s supporters have often pointed out that Blacks were unfairly placed in jail and the jail records were not indicative of his overall character. Some critics of Blacks may maintain that there was no reason for the system to have jailed blacks unfairly and thus the blacks deserved to be jailed and their jail records do reflect character defects in those jailed. I grew up in a country that has believed in the holocaust of Jews in WWII. Some individuals and leaders of countries teach that this history is false and there WAS NO holocaust of Jews. Both sides of even this recent history have supporter and detractors.
History, has always seemed to me to be merely a “version” of a reality that might have happened the way it was reported or maybe not. (Most of the time I think it was somewhat different than reported) Even fairly recent history becomes an object of great debate and hardly ever confirmable. (E.g. “There might have been a shooter on the grassy knoll in the kennedy assassination or not, yet the debate STILL goes on in some quarters.) Because most of us are limited in realistic and confirmable information sources, we are left, after all the tremendous hype and huffing and frustrating debates, to simply saying “this is my opinion, and it is tentative and dependent upon further information” and leaving it at that.
I certainly could be incorrect in this provisional way of looking at things until I have better data, but it is simply a way that such things can make provisional sense to me. Perhaps this is part of the reason such debates to not seem to have much value in my view (which is limited), but rather I've focused on whether his doctrines were in line with the ancient doctrines (also, I think that to view things in a historical way is probably my own bias). This viewpoint allows me to be amazed by Smith's apparent restoration of ancient christian doctrines quite independent of controversies that are (to me) of lessor import. I simply want accurate and ancient Christian Moral doctrines regarding SALVATION. (salvific accuracy)
Clear
drtzsesiis
(1) Numbers 12 : 1And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it. 3(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.) 4And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out. 5And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. 6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? 9And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. 10And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
(2) Indeed, even though the same Moses had commanded, “You shall not have a cast or a carved image for your God, nevertheless he himself made one in order to show them a symbol of Jesus. So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it up conspicuously, and called the people together by a proclamation. When they had gathered together they begged Moses to offer a prayer for them, that they might be healed. But Moses said to them: “Whenever,” he says “one of you is bitten, let him come to the serpent that is placed upon the wooden pole and let him hope and believe that though it is dead it can nonetheless give life, and he shall be saved immediately.” Bar 12:6-7;
(3) Moses realized that once again they had made cast images for themselves, and he flung the tablets from his hands, and the tablets of the Lord’s covenant were shattered. So Moses received it but they were not worthy. Bar 14:3-4;
