What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Autodidact]

You made it sound like it was a closed case. I pointed out defenses are available.

No, not inapplicable defenses. And no, I did not "make it sound like a closed case." I invited the accuser to provide evidence for his accusations, or retract them. That's how I think allegations should be treated in general, whether against me or anyone.

 

[Autodidact]

The logic is not faulty. You want to get rid of the LDS Church. If you get rid of the Church you get rid of the Humanitarian aid it provides.

Because Mormons are so bad that they wouldn't do good works unless they believed in a mythical angel?

 

[Watchmen]

No, not inapplicable defenses. And no, I did not "make it sound like a closed case." I invited the accuser to provide evidence for his accusations, or retract them. That's how I think allegations should be treated in general, whether against me or anyone.

Inapplicable? Give him a chance to make his case. Maybe we should add patience to the things you need to work on.

 

[Watchmen]

Because Mormons are so bad that they wouldn't do good works unless they believed in a mythical angel?

Twisting again --- not good for reputation.


Because the LDS church, via it's organizational structure, tithing, fast offerings, and the faith the people put into allows for the massive humanitarian aid to roll forward. Eliminating the church would result in a great loss of humanitarian aid around the world.

When major disasters hit the world, the LDS church is often one of the first on the scene.

You want to get rid of that?

That's what's sad.

 

[madhatter85]

I would point to an exact post to validate my claims maid against Auto but she has filled the last 3 pages of this thread with posts that speak for themselves and by association defend my claim.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The LDS are Christians like any other group of Christians.
The Book Of Mormon Is indubitably unique to them, and whilst I have read it, I am unconvinced by it. However it does contain some logical and well thought out thoughts on faith and the nature of souls, the past, the present and the future of our being.
I would not care to ridicule it simply because there is no proof that it is true in its entirety.
The same can be stated about sacred works of all the great religions .

The argument seems to be, that posters think, because some parts are seemingly wrong in their eyes, The whole is wrong. ..That defies the laws of logic.

I would be the first to say not all the Bible is either true or accurate. However I totally have faith in Jesus Teachings.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

The argument seems to be, that posters think, because some parts are seemingly wrong in their eyes, The whole is wrong. ..That defies the laws of logic.

I don't really see that as illogical in this instance. The Book of Mormon presents itself as a translation of a historical record, and the LDS faith heavily relies on it as being a literal account of a historic people. If that principle is called into question or disproved, it would be reasonable to think there is no reason to assume the claims made by the LDS church and the Book of Mormon hold any more value than those of any other denomination. Certainly the discussions of particular aspects of doctrine would still hold a certain degree of value, but it would lose the sense of authority that is integral to it being considered as valuable as it is to the LDS church.

Or to put it another way, the principle that the Book of Mormon is what Joseph Smith claimed it to be is so integral to the current value of the church, I don't think it would otherwise survive. To make concession to the principle that any of the incidents presented as historical fact are allegorical in nature would be an argument that I think would implode on itself given the sheer weight of prophetic statements to the contrary.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Twisting again --- not good for reputation.


Because the LDS church, via it's organizational structure, tithing, fast offerings, and the faith the people put into allows for the massive humanitarian aid to roll forward. Eliminating the church would result in a great loss of humanitarian aid around the world.

When major disasters hit the world, the LDS church is often one of the first on the scene.

You want to get rid of that?

That's what's sad.

I can certainly appreciate that we have an awesome infrastructure for humanitarian aid which would not be there if the church were to cease existing, but I must agree with Auto that it would be a terrible indictment to suggest that aid from those who would have been LDS would fall dramatically from present levels provided through the church.

I certainly do not give solely through the church when it comes to charity.

 

[madhatter85]

Twisting again --- not good for reputation.


Because the LDS church, via it's organizational structure, tithing, fast offerings, and the faith the people put into allows for the massive humanitarian aid to roll forward. Eliminating the church would result in a great loss of humanitarian aid around the world.

When major disasters hit the world, the LDS church is often one of the first on the scene.

You want to get rid of that?

That's what's sad.

Considering the church has the world's second largest disaster, relief and welfare system in the world (second only to the United Nations) It would definitely be a great loss to the world. Not even the Catholic Church, with all of its assets that dwarf the LDS church, doesn't have a humanitarian and welfare system that compares.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

When I look at the LDS...
I do not judge them by their belief in the BOM. or any other book.
I Look at them in the same way I look at any other Group of Christians.

Do they Love God and their fellow man?
Do they believe Jesus to be the son of God?
Do they follow the Teachings of Jesus?
Do they hold the Bible to be their prime inspiration.?
Do they live sober, honest and upright lives?
Are they active in works of charity to those more unfortunate than themselves?
Are they perhaps the best religiously educated and organized congregation in the Christian world?
I would say they have all these qualities in spades.

Do many other churches consider them to be Heretical?
Are they attacked for belief in their other scriptures?
Do they believe in the continuation of the prophets.?
Do they believe in an unconventional view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.?
These things and more are True.

Individually most of the LDS members I know are truly Christian. However like all men they sin and fall short of perfection.

I Expect one Day both we and they will understand the true nature and purpose of the BOM.
Until that time comes, I am perfectly prepared to wait and not be Judgmental about it.

 

[Watchmen]

I can certainly appreciate that we have an awesome infrastructure for humanitarian aid which would not be there if the church were to cease existing, but I must agree with Auto that it would be a terrible indictment to suggest that aid from those who would have been LDS would fall dramatically from present levels provided through the church.

I certainly do not give solely through the church when it comes to charity.

Yes - individuals would continue to be charitable - I never said they would not.

The point is what can be accomplished by these individuals without the church will be substantially less.

 

[Autodidact]

Inapplicable? Give him a chance to make his case. Maybe we should add patience to the things you need to work on.

Yes, Watchmen, that why I said, "either provide the evidence, OR retract your claim and apologize." Now we'll see what he chooses to do.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes - individuals would continue to be charitable - I never said they would not.
The point is what can be accomplished by these individuals without the church will be substantially less.

I don't know. If they each pooled 10% of their income, and used it to help other people, instead of building

and this:

and this:

They'd have more money available to help more people.

If the Ostlings, authors of Mormon America are to be believed,

the Church reported humanitarian aid expenditures of $30.7 million in total from 1984 to 1997 (p. 128). Compare this with the similarly-sized Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which provided humanitarian cash to the tune of $15.44 million in 1997 alone, not to mention various "assistance programs" providing "medical and educational" help (p. 129). This lends some credence to the idea that most LDS have an exaggerated idea of the extent to which tithing donations are directed to humanitarian purposes.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

The point is what can be accomplished by these individuals without the church will be substantially less.I don't know. If they each pooled 10% of their income, and used it to help other people, instead of building

They'd have more money available to help more people.

If the Ostlings, authors of Mormon America are to be believed,

All fair points, though I do believe when you take the church's welfare programs and the value of the voluntary work done in the name of the church, the contribution is a lot more substantial.

But I do accept your premise that the church spending millions on over-elaborate temple buildings does seem to be an odd priority, as beautiful as they are.

Edit: Plus tithing is directed at the running of the church - it is fast offerings that generate money to be used in welfare and humanitarian programs.

 

[madhatter85]

Edit: Plus tithing is directed at the running of the church - it is fast offerings that generate money to be used in welfare and humanitarian programs.

That is a very good point.

 

[Autodidact]

That is a very good point.

Can you explain why that's significant?

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Can you explain why that's significant?

Well, I am struggling to find figures for the value of the fast offering contributions, but I think the apparent discrepancy in generosity is largely down to not taking into account what fast offerings contribute. From the snippet you provided, it looked like it was only the money related to tithing that was considered in that article. I have read value estimates (though these are not purely about cash) orders of magnitude above the figure in that article.

 

[Scott C.]

The LDS church uses donations from members to run the church and to provide welfare and humanitarian services for LDS and non-LDS throughout the world. When a member makes a donation to the Church, they can specify if its for tithing, fast offering, humanitarian, missionary work, perpetual education fund, etc. The Church uses the money as specified. The tithing dollars cover the construction of temples, churches, universities, etc. My understanding is that some of the tithing dollars go to wefare, but I'm not sure how much.

IMO the LDS Church does not claim that all donations cover welfare and humanitarian efforts. Charity is a very important mission of the LDS Church, but it also has a mission to spread the gospel and provide temple ordinances to people throughout the world. This necessitates funding.

Regardless of how much my church spends on the temples, churches, etc., it is also very generous with weflare and humanitarian efforts. Members of the Church are free to donate as much as they wish to these specific funds. Cattle ranches owned and operated by my church provide food for the "Bishop's Storehouse" which is a place that the poor can go to get free food, as directed by the local bishop. Most objective people see a marvelous thing in the LDS bishop's storehouse.

I realize that if I stopped paying my tithing and gave that 10% to charity, I would be giving more to charity than I give now. However, I consider it personally important to contribute money to the overall mission of my church which includes temple and church construction, etc.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Digging into UK figures, for the year 2005 about £2,000,000 was donated in fast offering/humanitarian aid (1.5m/0.5m split) (and this is from what I can tell cash rather than value of services)

PDF - page 12 is where I am looking

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/ScannedAccounts/Ends51/0000242451_ac_20051231_e_c.pdf

Given the US Mormon population is over 30 times that of the UK, arguably the contribution made by US Mormons in that year would be around £60m, though there would be several confounding factors to that estimation we are still looking at a yearly value that is possibly bigger than the 13 year period cited.

In short, I don't think the estimate made by your source is a valid indication of monetary contribution, much less an estimate of the extend of humanitarian work when one takes into account the value of the voluntary work and services rendered.

 

[LittleNipper]

that's funny coming from you.

Not really, science is important; however, it shouldn't be applied to promote a bias. That doesn't mean that someone couldn't try to prove an event or disprove it, but when the results are not absolute, one should not simply exclude other possibilities. Evolution is a prime example. It is being taught as though it is absolute truth. It is nothing of the sort and should not be presented at the exclusion of creationism simply because some wish to exclude the notion of GOD.

In the case of Jewish, we have the Jew and the geography. But when it comes to Nephites and that geography, there is nothing.

And that in and of itself is odd, given the fact that GOD promised the land to Israel and all his descendents. One can imagine that those promises also included Nephi ---- yet he has been cut off and lost...