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What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

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misanthropic_clown

Active Member
And yes, looking further into the figures, same page, we see that the value of charity work is over £30,000,000 in one year in the UK. If we assume a similar thirty fold increase (I admit, unsoundly) the US value for charity work rendered in one year is 900 million pounds.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Yes it does. The Quran does not bring people to Christ - the Book of Mormon does.

Christ in the Quran (Isa al Masih) is not viewed as the god like most christian sects view him. He's actually mentioned more than any other prophet in the quran.....and any muslim will tell you that no person is a muslim unless he believes in Isa (Yeshua, Jesus) and that he is the Messiah. And with that we see the muslim faith far exceeding the members of the mormon religion. Their faith's numbers worldwide exceed yours and it is their article of faith to believe in the Messiah Jesus....


That's a broad statement. There is plenty of debate and information provided by apologetics.

I have seen plenty of apologetics debating about "reformed Egyptian".....(whatever that is)...but when put to the test against those who have actually studied the Egyptian language they fall short. Archeology is completely out of the question because there isn't a shred of evidence to support the claim of vast advanced civilization as the BoM portrays. "True" archeologist from the US to South America disagree that theses people never existed in the land as the BoM describes.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Not really, science is important; however, it shouldn't be applied to promote a bias.
Exactly! Stop there!
That doesn't mean that someone couldn't try to prove an event or disprove it, but when the results are not absolute, one should not simply exclude other possibilities. Evolution is a prime example. It is being taught as though it is absolute truth.
No, it's not, because science never is and is never presented as "absolute truth." If it were, it wouldn't be science. What it is taught as is scientific knowledge, because it is. I'm sorry that bothers you, but it's the truth.
It is nothing of the sort and should not be presented at the exclusion of creationism simply because some wish to exclude the notion of GOD.
You're exposing your ignorance about science, religion and evolution. Go argue in any of the ubiquitous evolution threads, where you will be shredded.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
So how does Israel validate the Bible? Please explain.


The fact that this ancient people group still exists after everything that has been thrown at it is amazing. And the Bible notes the LORD's promise made to Abraham. Now, there were many other groups of nations; however, none of these show the connections with both religion, land, and ancestory like that of the Jews.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Exactly! Stop there! No, it's not, because science never is and is never presented as "absolute truth." If it were, it wouldn't be science. What it is taught as is scientific knowledge, because it is. I'm sorry that bothers you, but it's the truth. You're exposing your ignorance about science, religion and evolution. Go argue in any of the ubiquitous evolution threads, where you will be shredded.

Then the fact that Creationism has been excluded demonstrates bias, hate and selfish manipulation of the educational process to gain the minds of the nations' youth.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Then the fact that Creationism has been excluded demonstrates bias, hate and selfish manipulation of the educational process to gain the minds of the nations' youth.

Creationism is never excluded by science; it is entirely compatible with the Theory of Evolution. Young Earth Creationism is excluded because it's pure balderdash that was disproved centuries ago.

Would you like to discuss this in the appropriate forum?
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Creationism is never excluded by science; it is entirely compatible with the Theory of Evolution. Young Earth Creationism is excluded because it's pure balderdash that was disproved centuries ago.

Would you like to discuss this in the appropriate forum?

No it isn't. The biblical record is very clear that man isn't the descendent of some animal kind. Man was/is a unique creation in the image of GOD. Satan would have everyone believe otherwise for the most obvious of reasons. He hates GOD. And no, I like to get back to the Mormon issue. But was simply pointing out that science doesn't disprove the Bible but supports and often enhances it. However, the book of Mormon is at serious odds. And that book is suppose to have more recent history that should be very easy to prove (if true).
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
No it isn't. The biblical record is very clear that man isn't the descendent of some animal kind. Man was/is a unique creation in the image of GOD. Satan would have everyone believe otherwise for the most obvious of reasons. He hates GOD. And no, I like to get back to the Mormon issue. But was simply pointing out that science doesn't disprove the Bible but supports and often enhances it. However, the book of Mormon is at serious odds. And that book is suppose to have more recent history that should be very easy to prove.

Would you like to start a thread in the appropriate forum?

The Bible is clear, and is clearly contradicted by modern science, just like the BoM.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Would you like to start a thread in the appropriate forum?

The Bible is clear, and is clearly contradicted by modern science, just like the BoM.

You're wrong. Babylon, Ur, the Hittites, and Jericho certainly did exist. Modern science is fine ---- it's the conclusions of some "modern" scientists which read more like the book of mormon.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
You're wrong. Babylon, Ur, the Hittites, and Jericho certainly did exist. Modern science is fine ---- it's the conclusions of some "modern" scientists which read more like the book of mormon.

Yes, archeology does confirm a lot of Biblical geography (although not actually Jericho, as it turned out) but not the events described there, such as slavery in Egypt, Tower of Babel, global flood, Hebrew invasion of Canaan, and so forth. (Not to mention the alleged miracles of Jesus, for which there is not a shred of confirming evidence.) That's about what we would expect from a book written by people who lived in a particular place; we'd expect them to know where they were.
 

Humanistheart

Well-Known Member
The fact that this ancient people group still exists after everything that has been thrown at it is amazing. And the Bible notes the LORD's promise made to Abraham. Now, there were many other groups of nations; however, none of these show the connections with both religion, land, and ancestory like that of the Jews.

Well, if you knew anything about it you'd know that they haven't always been jews. Before the destruction of the northern kingdom they were Isrealites, and before that they were Hebrews.

As for god and his promises, the bible also notes the davidic covenant promising the land of isreal would always belong to that people and they'd always be ruled by a king of the line of david, lest they do something so horrid as to black out the sun itself. The suns still there, so they jewish people have upheld there end, but the land of isreal still is not in their full possesion, and they have no king, let alone one of the line of david. If anything, the bible proves itself false, or at least that this god's merely a lier or not very powerful at all.

Now, what did the jewish people have to do with the BoM and it's obvious fictional nature?
 
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LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
Well, if you knew anything about it you'd know that they haven't always been jews. Before the destruction of the northern kingdom they were Isrealites, and before that they were Hebrews.

As for god and his promises, the bible also notes the davidic covenant promising the land of isreal would always belong to that people and they'd always be ruled by a king of the line of david, lest they do something so horrid as to black out the sun itself. The suns still there, so they jewish people have upheld there end, but the land of isreal still is not in their full possesion, and they have no king, let alone one of the line of david. If anything, the bible proves itself false, or at least that this god's merely a lier or not very powerful at all.

Now, what did the jewish people have to do with the BoM and it's obvious fictional nature?

These 10 Bible prophecies said that Israel would become a country, that it would be destroyed, that the Jews would be scattered worldwide and persecuted, that the Jews would have a worldwide impact, and that they would return to Israel. Today we are able to see evidence that each of these prophecies are being fulfilled.
1. The Jews would have their own country

Bible passage: Genesis 15:18

Written: perhaps 1400 BC

Fulfilled: 1400 BC and in 1948
In Genesis 15:18, the Bible said the descendants of Abraham (Abram) would have their own country, between Egypt and the Euphrates. This prophecy has been fulfilled more than once. About 3400 years ago, the Jews first established Israel. Then, about 2900 years ago, Israel divided into two kingdoms, called Judah and Israel. Both kingdoms were later conquered by the Assyrians and Babylonians. But, in 1948, the Jews regained independence for Israel. It was the first time in 2900 years that Israel was both united and independent.
Here is Genesis 15:18
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates…"
2. Jacob saw a vision of Israel's future

Bible passage: Genesis 28:10-15

Written: perhaps 1400 BC

Fulfilled: Throughout history


In Genesis 28:10-15, the Bible says that Jacob, who lived about 4000 years ago, received a vision from God about the future of his descendants (the Jews). The vision accurately foretold the future of the Jews. Here is our summary of Jacob's vision:
  1. The Jews would have Israel as their own country. This was fulfilled about 3400 years ago when the Jews first established Israel.
  2. The Jews would be scattered worldwide. This was fulfilled when the Jews were forced out of Israel more than 2500 years ago by the Assyrians and Babylonians and again about 1900 years ago by the Romans.
  3. The Jews would have a worldwide impact. Jews have had a tremendous worldwide impact in science, art, literature, economics, music and theology. The worldwide spread of Christianity began about 2000 years ago by a group of Jews who were followers of Jesus.
  4. The Jews would be brought back to Israel. This began to be fulfilled during the late 1800s when many Jews worldwide began returning to their ancient homeland. They re-established Israel's independence in 1948, after 19 centuries of exile and persecution throughout the world.
Here is Genesis 28:10-15

Jacob ... had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying. Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring. I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you." 3. God will save the Jews and destroy their enemies

Bible passage: Jeremiah 30:11

Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history


In Jeremiah 30:11, the prophet Jeremiah said the enemies of Israel will be destroyed but that the Jews will never perish. History has many examples of how nations have tried to destroy Israel and the Jews:
  • In about 721 BC (about 2700 years ago), Assyria destroyed the northern kingdom of Israel. They tortured, killed and exiled many Jews.
  • In 586 BC (about 2600 years ago), Babylon destroyed the southern kingdom of Judah. They killed and exiled many Jews.
  • In 70 AD (about 1900 years ago), the Romans killed an estimated 1.1 million Jews and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.
  • In 135 AD, the Romans killed an estimated 580,000 Jews and exiled many others.
  • In the 1930s and 1940s, the Nazis killed an estimated 6 million Jews. The Nazi plan, called the "final solution," was to kill all Jews.
Since then, millions of Jews worldwide have returned to their ancient homeland. Today, Israel again is a vibrant, independent country. But, the empires of the Nazis, Romans, Babylonians and Assyrians have vanished. Today, we can judge with our own eyes as to whether Jeremiah was correct when he said, 2600 years ago, that the enemies of the Jews would be destroyed, but that the Jews would be preserved.
Here is Jeremiah 30:11
I am with you and will save you,' declares the Lord. `Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.'
4. The Jews would face many disasters and difficulties

Bible passage: Deuteronomy 31:16-17

Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history
In Deuteronomy 31:16-17, the Bible said that the Jews would face many difficulties if they turned away from God. And, according to the Bible, many people in ancient Israel did at times turn away from God and worship the false gods of pagan Gentiles. This prophecy of persecution has been fulfilled many times. During the past 1900 years in Europe, for example, Jews were often heavily taxed, robbed of their possessions, stripped of their civil rights, forced into ghettos, tortured and slaughtered. Government leaders and church leaders at times banished the Jews from living in Spain, England, France, Belgium and Italy. During the Crusades, Jewish villages were often destroyed and men, women and children were burned alive. Those centuries of persecutions culminated with the Holocaust of the 1930s and 1940s, when the Nazis killed an estimated 6 million Jews. When Israel reclaimed independence in 1948, the surrounding countries invaded and tried to destroy the tiny nation.
Here is Deuteronomy 31:16-17
And the Lord said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, `Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?'
5. The Jews would be scattered worldwide

Bible passage: Deuteronomy 28:64

Written: perhaps 1400 BC

Fulfilled: 721 BC, 586 BC, 70 AD, 135 AD
In Deuteronomy 28:64, the Bible said the Jews would be scattered worldwide. This prophecy has certainly been fulfilled. Take a look at the explanation of the Jewish "Diaspora," which means "scattering," from the Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition: "… by 70 A.D. Jewish communities existed in Babylonia, Syria, Egypt, Cyrene, Asia Minor, Greece, and Rome. Jews followed the Romans into Europe and from Persia and Babylonia spread as far east as China. In modern times, Jews have migrated to the Americas, South Africa, and Australia. The Jewish population of Central and Eastern Europe, until World War II the largest in the world, was decimated in the Holocaust. Despite the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, the vast majority of the Jewish people remains in the Diaspora, notably in North America, Russia, and Ukraine."
Here is Deuteronomy 28:64
Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods--gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.
 

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
6. The Jews would have a worldwide impact

Bible passage: Genesis 12:2-3

Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history
In Genesis 12:2-3, and in Genesis 28:10-15, the Bible said that the descendants of Abraham and the descendants of Abraham's grandson, Jacob, would be a blessing for people worldwide. Jacob is the father of the 12 Tribes of Israel (the Jews). In 1898, Mark Twain wrote an essay for Harper's New Monthly Magazine that discussed how the Jews have had an impact on the world:
" … the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also way out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone. Other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all… All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?"
Here is Genesis 12:2-3
"I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."
7. Israel would be partitioned by other nations

Bible passage: Joel 3:2

Written: about 400 BC
Fulfilled: 1900s
In Joel 3:2, the prophet said that the nations of the world will be judged for having scattered the people of Israel and for having "divided up" (or "parted" or "partitioned") the land of Israel. Christian scholars believe that this is a prophecy that will be fulfilled during the End Times. But, portions of the prophecy already have been fulfilled. The Jews have been scattered to nations throughout the world, and the nations of the world have divided up the land of Israel. On November 29, 1947, when the United Nations General Assembly approved a motion to partition the land, which at that time was called "Palestine." The partition plan divided the land into two separate states, one for Jewish people and another for Arab people. Today, that partitioning is interlocked with many political problems as the Jews seek to reclaim the land promised to them in the Bible (see Genesis 15:18, Genesis 28:10-17 and Genesis 35:9-12), and the Arabs seek to create a homeland for "Palestinians" - Arabs who have lived in that land for many generations.
Here is Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.
(NOTE: "Jehoshaphat" means "the Lord judges.")
8. Israel would be restored and repopulated

Bible passage: Ezekiel 36:8-10

Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
In Ezekiel 36:8-10, the prophet Ezekiel said that the Jews would return, rebuild and repopulate their fallen cities. Ezekiel, according to the Bible, lived about 2600 years ago during the time of the Babylonian Captivity, when many Jews, including Ezekiel, were taken as captives to Babylon. After the Babylonian Captivity ended, many Jews left Babylon and returned to their homeland. But about 1900 years ago, the Jews again were forced into exile, this time by the Romans. However, since the late 1800s, millions of Jews have returned to their ancient homeland. And, once again, they have been rebuilding and repopulating their ancient cities. In 1948, there were about 600,000 Jews living in Israel. Today there are about 6,000,000. And more Jews throughout the world are returning to Israel each year.
Here is Ezekiel 36:8-10
"`But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown, and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.
9. Jesus' life was foreshadowed by the prophet Isaiah

Bible passage: Isaiah 42:1-9

Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: About 2000 years ago
In Isaiah 42:1-9, the prophet Isaiah speaks of a servant of God who will be a light to the Gentiles (non-Jews) and bring justice to the world. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of this promise. Jesus' teachings govern the lives of Christians throughout the world. There are an estimated 2 billion Christians worldwide. More people follow the teachings of Jesus than those of any other person in history.
Here is Isaiah 42:1-9
"Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. … In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. … "I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. "I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you."
10. Jesus said His words would never be forgotten

Bible passage: Luke 21:33

Written: about 30 AD
Fulfilled: At this very moment
In Luke 21:33, Jesus said that regardless of what happens to the world, His words will never be forgotten. Here we are 2000 years later and the words of Jesus are all around us: There are 2 billion Christians worldwide and the Bible is most circulated book in the world. Of all the people who have ever lived, can you think of a single person who could have made this claim more effectively than Jesus - that his words would never be forgotten?
Here is Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But I do accept your premise that the church spending millions on over-elaborate temple buildings does seem to be an odd priority, as beautiful as they are.

Are you not familiar with the Lord's requirement to use the best materials to build his House? This is scripturally required.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Christ in the Quran (Isa al Masih) is not viewed as the god like most christian sects view him. He's actually mentioned more than any other prophet in the quran.....and any muslim will tell you that no person is a muslim unless he believes in Isa (Yeshua, Jesus) and that he is the Messiah. And with that we see the muslim faith far exceeding the members of the mormon religion. Their faith's numbers worldwide exceed yours and it is their article of faith to believe in the Messiah Jesus....

All irrelevant. Does the Quran claim to be a testimony of Jesus Christ? Is that the Quran's purpose? No. Also, logical fallacy --- appeal to numbers.




I have seen plenty of apologetics debating about "reformed Egyptian".....(whatever that is)...but when put to the test against those who have actually studied the Egyptian language they fall short. Archeology is completely out of the question because there isn't a shred of evidence to support the claim of vast advanced civilization as the BoM portrays. "True" archeologist from the US to South America disagree that theses people never existed in the land as the BoM describes.

You picked one thing. Perhaps you think this is your strongest argument. Care to keep going?
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
All irrelevant.

How so.?...You make the claim against the Quran that it does not bring people to Christ and it's without a doubt that no Muslim can call themselves a Muslim unless they acknowledge Isa (IS) Al Masih...(Jesus is the Christ)....It is one of their articles of faith....Do you have anything to the contrary?


Does the Quran claim to be a testimony of Jesus Christ?

Irrelevant....

Is that the Quran's purpose?

Muslims will tell you the Quran is a guide to truth.....as you have said is the case for the BoM.....

Also, logical fallacy --- appeal to numbers.

If you say so....but the statement stands. You believe the BoM brings people to Christ. Ok....I never challenged that to say that it doesn't. But your comment saying the Quran doesn't is nonsense considering it is a Muslim's article of faith to accept Isa (Yeshua, Jesus) as the Messiah. It's not my fault they accept Isa (Jesus) as the Messiah and they happen to outnumber you....It's just the facts.


You picked one thing. Perhaps you think this is your strongest argument. Care to keep going?

If you were counting properly..it was two....but really...it's irrelevant as well.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How so.?...You make the claim against the Quran that it does not bring people to Christ and it's without a doubt that no Muslim can call themselves a Muslim unless they acknowledge Isa (IS) Al Masih...(Jesus is the Christ)....It is one of their articles of faith....Do you have anything to the contrary?




Irrelevant....



Muslims will tell you the Quran is a guide to truth.....as you have said is the case for the BoM.....



If you say so....but the statement stands. You believe the BoM brings people to Christ. Ok....I never challenged that to say that it doesn't. But your comment saying the Quran doesn't is nonsense considering it is a Muslim's article of faith to accept Isa (Yeshua, Jesus) as the Messiah. It's not my fault they accept Isa (Jesus) as the Messiah and they happen to outnumber you....It's just the facts.




If you were counting properly..it was two....but really...it's irrelevant as well.

I said the purpose of the Book of Mormon is to bring people to Christ. The same cannot be said of the Quran. Muslims deny Jesus is the Son of God - they deny his Deity.
 
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