What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Humanistheart]

As it goes, Anthon tore up the certificate upon hearing the story of how Smith received and translated the plates.

If the certificate was torn up by anthon, then neither smith nor the mormons congregation ever had possesion of it. There's no evidence it ever existed. So, what reason would there be to believe it in fact existed?

And if anthon had believed they were authentic prior to knowing where they came from, why did he not then become involved in the lds church after hearing the story?

Again, if the story is fake, why does Harris give all his money and then some to follow Smith - especially when he already had doubts going in.

If the story is fake, why assume harris had daubts? And unless auto is incorrect, and no one seems to have presented evidence to sugggest this, we're discussing a story told by Smith.

What reseason do we have to believe Smith's story over a first hand account by anthon?

 

[Watchmen]

I'll refer you to post 558.

 

[Humanistheart]

I'll refer you to post 558.

Was this addressed to me? If so, what about the content of that post do you feel addresses mine?

 

[Watchmen]

Was this addressed to me? If so, what about the content of that post do you feel addresses mine?

I believe the link provides some answers to your questions.

Of course, in the end, neither of us is likely to move on this issue.

 

[Humanistheart]

I believe the link provides some answers to your questions.

Of course, in the end, neither of us is likely to move on this issue.

My previous questions stand, if you care to answer them yourself. Feel free to use whatever part of that link you feel is relative.

"regarding "a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned"?" I found this bit from it interesting, as I've never heard anyone claim smith was learned. In fact usually I hear it the opposite way.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

"regarding "a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned"?" I found this bit from it interesting, as I've never heard anyone claim smith was learned. In fact usually I hear it the opposite way.

If Smith wrote the BOM with out help, he was certainly far more learned and intelligent than your average Religious graduate of the day. It would have been an an immense task of imagination, logic, writing, correlation, and a detailed knowledge of the Bible and writing styles. And at the same time a pathalogical intent to decieve.

On the other hand if it was a direct translation from an existing text, it required a very strong faith and the help of God.

 

[zomg]

"regarding "a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned"?" I found this bit from it interesting, as I've never heard anyone claim smith was learned. In fact usually I hear it the opposite way.

Joseph isn't the "one that is learned" who is being described here. That would be Anthon. Joseph is referred to as "unlearned".

Unless I am mistaken.

 

[Autodidact]

I'll refer you to post 558.

From that source:

[FONT=Times, Serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Sans Serif]Shortly thereafter, a friend of the Smith family, Martin Harris of Palmyra, visited him, secured a handwritten copy of some of the characters on the plates, took them to New York City for the evaluation of men of learning, and returned to relate the following to Joseph Smith:[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times, Serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Sans Serif]It is important that we realize that even though the statement of Martin Harris is now contained in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith was only reporting what Martin Harris said happened and was not necessarily vouching for what Dr. Anthon and Dr. Mitchill reputedly had said. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Times, Serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, Sans Serif]As far as the official account (published in 1842 as noted above) of what transpired, it must be carefully noted again that Joseph Smith is not vouching for what Harris said; he is simply reporting what Harris told him.[/FONT][/FONT]

Neither Professor Kimball nor Watchmen seems to have noticed that Smith is the only source for this report, and that they both assume that Smith described the report accurately. I repeat: the most likely explanation is that Joseph Smith lied. He lied about the angels, lied about the plates, lied about Reformed Egyptian and lied about Professor Anthon. This explanation fits and explains all the facts.

 

[Autodidact]

If Smith wrote the BOM with out help, he was certainly far more learned and intelligent than your average Religious graduate of the day. It would have been an an immense task of imagination, logic, writing, correlation, and a detailed knowledge of the Bible and writing styles. And at the same time a pathalogical intent to decieve.

Where do you get this? Have you read any of it? For me it's such tripe, so poorly written, badly organized, confusing, turgid and awkward from page one that:
(1) I can't force myself to slog through it.
(2) It doesn't indicate an iota of divine inspiration.
(3) Even without the ridiculous story of angel, plates and hat, it's transparently phony.
Of course, that's as subjective as your impression.

On the other hand if it was a direct translation from an existing text, it required a very strong faith and the help of God.

Actually, it required magic, since the translation method adopted was, to say the least, unorthodox.

 

[Humanistheart]

If Smith wrote the BOM with out help, he was certainly far more learned and intelligent than your average Religious graduate of the day. It would have been an an immense task of imagination, logic, writing, correlation, and a detailed knowledge of the Bible and writing styles. And at the same time a pathalogical intent to decieve.

On the other hand if it was a direct translation from an existing text, it required a very strong faith and the help of God.

Looks like auto already beat me to putting this down. You don't need two people explaining why that was nonesence.

 

[Sententia]

Neither Professor Kimball nor Watchmen seems to have noticed that Smith is the only source for this report, and that they both assume that Smith described the report accurately. I repeat: the most likely explanation is that Joseph Smith lied. He lied about the angels, lied about the plates, lied about Reformed Egyptian and lied about Professor Anthon. This explanation fits and explains all the facts.

Agreed and well said. :clap

The postulated alternative that angels exist and come down to spread remarkably similar tales as many other common sources of that day already stated which were written in many books available to Joe is complete balderdash. The amount of squirming and mental gymnastics needed to explain the questionable character of Joseph, his tale of cities and people that never existed and its blatant similarity to many other texts of the time is interesting to watch but an unnecessary endeavor.

Occam's Razor: Smith was a highly skilled and charismatic con man who lots of people fell for hook, line and sinker. But to many people, even those around when joe first fabricated this fairy tale, its all nonsense and transparently so.

 

[Watchmen]

I suggest the movie "Contact" for all the non-believers and others relying on Occam's Razor.

 

[Autodidact]

I suggest the movie "Contact" for all the non-believers and others relying on Occam's Razor.

Why? Message too short, so I'll repeat) Why?

 

[madhatter85]

I suggest the movie "Contact" for all the non-believers and others relying on Occam's Razor.

oh Contact was a good movie. and since this thread is also now a waste of time and space. Here is a recipe for:

RITZ CHICKEN CASSEROLE
6 chicken breasts
2 cans cream of chicken soup
1 tube Ritz crackers
8 oz. sour cream with onion
1 tsp. celery seed
1 1/2 stick butter

Boil breast until tender; remove skin and bones and cut into small pieces. Spread in buttered casserole. Crush crackers and add celery seed. Spread over soup. Melt butter and pour over all evenly. Bake 20 to 30 minutes at 350 degrees until hot and bubbly. Hint: This is a very rich dish - lower calorie butter or imitation sour cream may be substituted without altering flavor.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Can we at least start to seriously address the claim that the people in the BoM actually existed? Mormons say it's a testament of Jesus Christ to the people in this land...What evidence is there for the people in this land, as described by the BoM?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

oh Contact was a good movie. and since this thread is also now a waste of time and space. Here is a recipe for:

RITZ CHICKEN CASSEROLE
6 chicken breasts
2 cans cream of chicken soup
1 tube Ritz crackers
8 oz. sour cream with onion
1 tsp. celery seed
1 1/2 stick butter

Boil breast until tender; remove skin and bones and cut into small pieces. Spread in buttered casserole. Crush crackers and add celery seed. Spread over soup. Melt butter and pour over all evenly. Bake 20 to 30 minutes at 350 degrees until hot and bubbly. Hint: This is a very rich dish - lower calorie butter or imitation sour cream may be substituted without altering flavor.

It was cute with the cookies...but now you're just SPAMMING..!!!!!:shout

 

[madhatter85]

It was cute with the cookies...but now you're just SPAMMING..!!!!!:shout

and there have been 58 pages of spam thus far.

At least someone might eat a healthy dinner tomorrow night

 

[Watchmen]

Why? Message too short, so I'll repeat) Why?

Have you seen it?

 

[Watchmen]

Can we at least start to seriously address the claim that the people in the BoM actually existed? Mormons say it's a testament of Jesus Christ to the people in this land...What evidence is there for the people in this land, as described by the BoM?

Maybe we should get DeepShadow here to talk about mitochondrial DNA.

 

[Autodidact]

Have you seen it?

No, why? It's fiction, no?