What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Sententia]

This is why I think relativism in religion is a load of crap. I believe that Jesus is God THE ONE AND ONLY. Jehova's Witnesses think he is a created being and therefore NOT God. Mormons think Jesus is one God among many. Muslims think he is a prophet, a great and holy man but a mere man nonetheless. Then there are the skeptical opinions that he was just a normal dude who was deified posthumously, or that he never existed at all and everything we think we know about him is just like a fairy tale.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that Jesus can simultaneously be God one-and-only, one God among many, a created spirit being, just a normal man, and a made up story.

Can you people see the absurdity when we assume relativism?

Yeah and his name is not "the man upstairs". It is Jesus Christ. :yes: (Sorry, saw that a bumper sticker today, lol)

:halloween:

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Can you people see the absurdity when we assume relativism?

The absurdity is none of this has anything to do with the current topic....:sarcastic

Try that out over here.....http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/61330-did-jesus-say-he-god.html

 

[Autodidact]

I have made no such statement regarding my beliefs.

*Come on, baby! Lets do the twist!*
-Chubby Checker

Well, if you're right, and the Muslim is right, then Jesus must be divine and not divine. And by your standards, the Muslim is right, right?

 

[Autodidact]

What about having revelations from god that seem to suit your immediate and personal needs?

Watchmen's overall view is different though... I think he is basically saying that the whole ancient civilization that has no evidence... the gold plates... the whole revelation stuff... just allegorical and intended to instruct and not to actually recount what actually happened.

I don't believe thats doctrine though but its definitely a method I have not heard about before. At least not from other mormons. If you follow that everything is allegorical then the actual faith would not really matter as much either if you could derive the lessons, meaning and morals from the stories. I have not read the entire BOM yet but if you were to take the bible and attempt to derive the lessons, meanings and morals from it you would probably end up psychotic unless you were VERY picky and creative to boot. hehe.

Actually, he's saying it may or may not have happened, and it doesn't matter to him either way, because that's not what's important about that story.

 

[Watchmen]

Well, if you're right, and the Muslim is right, then Jesus must be divine and not divine. And by your standards, the Muslim is right, right?

I do not simultaneously believe that Jesus is both Divine and not Divine. I believe Jesus is Divine.

I also recognize that the Muslim does not believe such and I recognize that the Muslim's belief is right for him, but not for me. I do believe in universal truths, but the way each individual approaches such truths will be unique to the individual. That's why I didn't "force" the LDS gospel down anyone's throat when I was a missionary (or even now). I invite people to share my path because it works for me and I think it can work for them. If they think so too, great. If not, that's fine too.

 

[Katzpur]

Mormons think Jesus is one God among many.

You know, in 61 years as a Mormon, I have never heard this statement from a member of my Church, although our critics are fond of telling people this is what we believe.

 

[Autodidact]

I do not simultaneously believe that Jesus is both Divine and not Divine. I believe Jesus is Divine.

I also recognize that the Muslim does not believe such and I recognize that the Muslim's belief is right for him, but not for me. I do believe in universal truths, but the way each individual approaches such truths will be unique to the individual. That's why I didn't "force" the LDS gospel down anyone's throat when I was a missionary (or even now). I invite people to share my path because it works for me and I think it can work for them. If they think so too, great. If not, that's fine too.

It's not about right and wrong, it's about true or not true. The claim "Jesus is divine" is a fact claim. It is either true or false. You believe it is true because of your own spiritual experience. If so, you must credit the Muslim's spiritual experience as well, which means you must equally believe that Jesus is not divine.

The only way out of this is to resort to a post-modernist anything-goes-ist "there is no such thing as truth," stance, which
(a) is bogus
(b) contradicts itself. (since it makes a truth claim, which it claims to be impossible) and
(c) is the opposite of what all religions and religionists claim, which is that they have access to truth.

I mean, a religion that's not true isn't much use, is it?

And we all know that the reason the Muslim's belief feels true to him is that he was brainwashed into it at a young age, which is also the reason yours feels true to you. Surely you agree that being brainwashed into something at a pre-judgemental age is a terrible basis on which to base belief?

 

[Watchmen]

It's not about right and wrong, it's about true or not true. The claim "Jesus is divine" is a fact claim. It is either true or false. You believe it is true because of your own spiritual experience. If so, you must credit the Muslim's spiritual experience as well, which means you must equally believe that Jesus is not divine.

The only way out of this is to resort to a post-modernist anything-goes-ist "there is no such thing as truth," stance, which
(a) is bogus
(b) contradicts itself. (since it makes a truth claim, which it claims to be impossible) and
(c) is the opposite of what all religions and religionists claim, which is that they have access to truth.

I mean, a religion that's not true isn't much use, is it?

And we all know that the reason the Muslim's belief feels true to him is that he was brainwashed into it at a young age, which is also the reason yours feels true to you. Surely you agree that being brainwashed into something at a pre-judgemental age is a terrible basis on which to base belief?

There you go, using the term "brainwashed" again. The Muslim, the Mormon, the Catholic...whatever, is no more "brainwashed" than you. We are each the sum of our own experiences. Such does not equate to brainwashing.

 

[Autodidact]

There you go, using the term "brainwashed" again. The Muslim, the Mormon, the Catholic...whatever, is no more "brainwashed" than you. We are each the sum of our own experiences. Such does not equate to brainwashing.

No. I do not subscribe to the religion I was raised in. If you were raised Mormon, then from the time you were a small child the people that you most trusted to teach you about the world told you over and over that certain things were true, that it was very important that you believe them, that you eternal salvation depended on you believing and doing certain things. They took you to a special place to teach you songs and chant poems expressing those beliefs. And they began doing this when you were far too young to question them. And lo, now you are grown, and you still hold them. Also Muslims and Catholics.

I escaped my childhood beliefs because I allowed myself to question them. It may also be that I received less indoctrination than you did.

But no, they're not the same. It's not just a question of your experiences, it's the experience of being indoctrinated into a certain set of beliefs before the age of reason. We have a word for that. We call it "brainwashing."

 

[jabberwockybruno]

The absurdity is none of this has anything to do with the current topic....:sarcastic


Actually most posts on this thread don't have anything to do with the topic. Look at the very first post. LittleNipper said he thought the Book of Mormon "is very odd when stacked against the Holy Scripture." Mostly there has been discussion about the historicity of the Book of Mormon, not comparison between the BoM and the Bible. I mentioned baptism and I think Rogue Cardinal made some points about the nature of God. I can't off the top of my head think of any other posts that were specifically about comparison between the two books.

Relativism is hugely important for this topic. If the BoM says "A is true" and the Bible says "A is false" then one of the books is making a false statement and we can't say that both of them are infallible.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Relativism is hugely important for this topic. If the BoM says "A is true" and the Bible says "A is false" then one of the books is making a false statement and we can't say that both of them are infallible.

Both make false statements...One just comes off more ridiculous than the other. (imo).

And if you go back to the OP.....there were no guideline for us to continue comparing the bible to the BoM. That reference appeared solely the OP opinion.

What is odd about the Book of Mormon?
I find that the Book of Mormon is very odd when stacked against the Holy Scripture.
Do others see issues also?

And we answered the question by stating what we find odd.

 

[Atheisttillprovenwrong]

Does anyone want to know the history behind how the book of mormon was written? Well ill tell you.

This man says that an angel came to him in a dream and directed him to a nearby mountain/hill where there were some metal plates. He retrieved these metal plates (which by the way were blank) and what he would do, is put a "seeing" stone on the brim of a hat, with the plates down in the hat, put his face into the hat, covered his head with a cloth, and proceeded to yell out the "words that appeared in glowing english" to a person in another room.

sounds pretty damn rediculous to me, even moreso than the regular bible.

 

[Watchmen]

No. I do not subscribe to the religion I was raised in. If you were raised Mormon, then from the time you were a small child the people that you most trusted to teach you about the world told you over and over that certain things were true, that it was very important that you believe them, that you eternal salvation depended on you believing and doing certain things. They took you to a special place to teach you songs and chant poems expressing those beliefs. And they began doing this when you were far too young to question them. And lo, now you are grown, and you still hold them. Also Muslims and Catholics.

I escaped my childhood beliefs because I allowed myself to question them. It may also be that I received less indoctrination than you did.

But no, they're not the same. It's not just a question of your experiences, it's the experience of being indoctrinated into a certain set of beliefs before the age of reason. We have a word for that. We call it "brainwashing."

Our experiences are not limited to religion. You "escaped your beliefs" as you put it because of the total sum of all experiences. Further, if "brainwashing" really occurred then people would not escape, right? And how about those hundreds of thousands of people who join the LDS Church as adults? They weren't brainwashed either.

 

[Autodidact]

Our experiences are not limited to religion. You "escaped your beliefs" as you put it because of the total sum of all experiences.

Yes. How does that indicate that religionists aren't brainwashed? You may be suffering from the tyranny of the discontinuous mind. Most things in life are percentages, not absolutes.

Further, if "brainwashing" really occurred then people would not escape, right?

No, it doesn't.

And how about those hundreds of thousands of people who join the LDS Church as adults? They weren't brainwashed either.

What percentage of Mormons join the Church as adults?

Were you raised Mormon?

I've met a lot of Mormons on line, but I've yet to meet one that converted as an adult. I think most non-Mormon adults hear the Joseph Smith story, read a page of the BoM and burst out laughing.

The fact is that the #1 strongest predictor of someone's adult religious faith is the faith they are raised in. Had you been born in Peshawar, you would be Muslim. You would have experienced direct personal revelation of the greatness of Allah and the noble quran, and you would know for a fact that Allah is God and Muhammed His prophet.

Doesn't that disturb you? Doesn't it make you question your faith at all, when you realize that the only reason that you have it is that it was drummed into you as a child?

 

[Autodidact]

I do not simultaneously believe that Jesus is both Divine and not Divine. I believe Jesus is Divine.

I also recognize that the Muslim does not believe such and I recognize that the Muslim's belief is right for him, but not for me. I do believe in universal truths, but the way each individual approaches such truths will be unique to the individual. That's why I didn't "force" the LDS gospel down anyone's throat when I was a missionary (or even now). I invite people to share my path because it works for me and I think it can work for them. If they think so too, great. If not, that's fine too.

So "Jesus is God" is not a universal truth? It's only your personal path? It's exactly as true as "Allah is God and Muhammed his prophet?"

And what about my revelation, that there is no God? Equally true?

 

[jabberwockybruno]

So "Jesus is God" is not a universal truth? It's only your personal path? It's exactly as true as "Allah is God and Muhammed his prophet?"

And what about my revelation, that there is no God? Equally true?

That's exactly what I was saying. If I claim to make a true statement when I say "Jesus is God" then I must also claim that anybody who says anything different is plain WRONG.

We're talking about something that has an existence and truth (or lack of existence and truth) completely independent of what we think or believe. Let's take this basic statement "Jesus died on the cross." Now when he was brought down he was either really really dead--heart-stopped-and-never-to-start-again, or alive and breathing with a beating heart.
I believe he was deader-than-a-doornail-dead when he came down from that cross. I believe this actually happened as a historical event, not just that it is "true for me" and therefore say I have a right belief.
What can I say to someone who believes Jesus didn't die on the cross, except that his belief is just plain WRONG? The belief being "true for him" doesn't mean anything other than that he thinks it's true. That belief is just fiction confused as fact.

I know Autodidact knows what I'm talking about. I hope others are able to understand me too.

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes. How does that indicate that religionists aren't brainwashed? You may be suffering from the tyranny of the discontinuous mind. Most things in life are percentages, not absolutes. No, it doesn't. What percentage of Mormons join the Church as adults?

Were you raised Mormon?

I've met a lot of Mormons on line, but I've yet to meet one that converted as an adult. I think most non-Mormon adults hear the Joseph Smith story, read a page of the BoM and burst out laughing.

The fact is that the #1 strongest predictor of someone's adult religious faith is the faith they are raised in. Had you been born in Peshawar, you would be Muslim. You would have experienced direct personal revelation of the greatness of Allah and the noble quran, and you would know for a fact that Allah is God and Muhammed His prophet.

Doesn't that disturb you? Doesn't it make you question your faith at all, when you realize that the only reason that you have it is that it was drummed into you as a child?

I personally know a guy whose parents became Mormons as adults, but they were drawn to it because they had nothing and were party people. He was not raised a Mormon but ended up in the Mormon church.

He later came to date a Fundamentalist Bible Christian and got saved. Says his parents cling to a work related belief and really had a problem with his salvation. They were hard on his eventual Christian wife, but have since mellowed because of the grandchildren.

 

[Watchmen]

Those who claim that have not met a Mormon adult who converted and was not raised in the Church are deluding themselves. Approximately two-thirds of the Church's near 14 million members are converts.

 

[madhatter85]

Those who claim that have not met a Mormon adult who converted and was not raised in the Church are deluding themselves. Approximately two-thirds of the Church's near 14 million members are converts.

Fascinating that prophecy is fulfilled no matter how ignorant opponents to the great work are.

 

[Watchmen]

Fascinating that prophecy is fulfilled no matter how ignorant opponents to the great work are.

An appeal to numbers doesn't support the Church's position regarding fulfillment of prophesy. The Seventh Day Adventists, for example, started after the Church and have almost twice as many members. I believe the same is for other groups as well.