What is odd about the Book of Mormon?

[Autodidact]

Those who claim that have not met a Mormon adult who converted and was not raised in the Church are deluding themselves. Approximately two-thirds of the Church's near 14 million members are converts.

As in most areas, the LDS church is (to put it charitably) less than accurate:

The American Religious Identification Survey of 2001 the Graduate Center of City University of New York said in a report that the same number of people had left the Mormon church in the United States as had joined it.’

The claim that Mormonism is the fastest-growing faith in the world has been repeated so routinely by sociologists, anthropologists, journalists and proud Latter-day Saints as to be perceived as unassailable fact.
The trouble is, it isn't true.
Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more than 12 million members on its rolls, more than doubling its numbers in the past quarter-century. But since 1990, other faiths - Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups - have grown much faster and in more places around the globe. ..
And most telling, the number of Latter-day Saints who are considered active churchgoers is only about a third of the total, or 4 million in the pews every Sunday, researchers say. ...
When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent...By multiplying the number of members in each area by these fractions, David G. Stewart Jr. estimates worldwide activity at about 35 percent - which would give the church about 4 million active members.
Stewart, an active Mormon who served a mission to Russia in the early 1990s, has been conducting research on LDS missionary work in 20 countries for 13 years, examining census figures, and analyzing published data.
Take Brazil. In its 2000 Census, 199,645 residents identified themselves as LDS, while the church listed 743,182 on its rolls.
from the Salt Lake City Tribune.

btw, was it you or someone else in this thread who accused me of carelessly citing unsupported facts?

 

[Watchmen]

As in most areas, the LDS church is (to put it charitably) less than accurate:

The American Religious Identification Survey of 2001 the Graduate Center of City University of New York said in a report that the same number of people had left the Mormon church in the United States as had joined it.’

The claim that Mormonism is the fastest-growing faith in the world has been repeated so routinely by sociologists, anthropologists, journalists and proud Latter-day Saints as to be perceived as unassailable fact.
The trouble is, it isn't true.
Today, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more than 12 million members on its rolls, more than doubling its numbers in the past quarter-century. But since 1990, other faiths - Seventh-day Adventists, Assemblies of God and Pentecostal groups - have grown much faster and in more places around the globe. ..
And most telling, the number of Latter-day Saints who are considered active churchgoers is only about a third of the total, or 4 million in the pews every Sunday, researchers say. ...
When the Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted an American Religious Identification Survey in 2001, it discovered that about the same number of people said they had joined the LDS Church as said they had left it. The CUNY survey reported the church's net growth was zero percent...By multiplying the number of members in each area by these fractions, David G. Stewart Jr. estimates worldwide activity at about 35 percent - which would give the church about 4 million active members.
Stewart, an active Mormon who served a mission to Russia in the early 1990s, has been conducting research on LDS missionary work in 20 countries for 13 years, examining census figures, and analyzing published data.
Take Brazil. In its 2000 Census, 199,645 residents identified themselves as LDS, while the church listed 743,182 on its rolls.
from the Salt Lake City Tribune.

btw, was it you or someone else in this thread who accused me of carelessly citing unsupported facts?

And there you go twisting things again. My statement had nothing to do with some claim about the fastest growing religion. In fact, my last post (to madhatter) pointed out the error in claiming such.

And...here's my source: Coke Newell, "Latter Days" (St. Martin's Press, 2000). So, there are plenty of first generation converts in the Church. In fact, during a recent Priesthood lesson, the instructor asked the number of first-generation converts to raise their hand (it was about 50% of those present).

 

[Humanistheart]

I haven't been on this site for a few days, so perhaps I just missed it, but has anyone come forth with anything to substantiate the BoM or at least counter some of the many blatant problems with it that have been raised throughout this thread?

 

[Autodidact]

And there you go twisting things again. My statement had nothing to do with some claim about the fastest growing religion. In fact, my last post (to madhatter) pointed out the error in claiming such.

And...here's my source: Coke Newell, "Latter Days" (St. Martin's Press, 2000). So, there are plenty of first generation converts in the Church. In fact, during a recent Priesthood lesson, the instructor asked the number of first-generation converts to raise their hand (it was about 50% of those present).

You claimed that the church has 14 million plus members. The source I cited (Mormon) indicates that it has about 4 million active members.

Furthermore, given the average size of LDS families, if the Church's net growth is zero, they must be losing people faster than they're converting them.

Which is not to say no one converts to LDS, just that the single best predictor of anyone's adult religion is the religion they were raised in before reaching the age of discernment.

I didn't accuse you of making reckless claims without supporting sources, as some slandering liar did of me, failed to support his claim, and never withdrew or apologized for his accusation. (IIRC it wasn't you--was it?)

 

[Autodidact]

I haven't been on this site for a few days, so perhaps I just missed it, but has anyone come forth with anything to substantiate the BoM or at least counter some of the many blatant problems with it that has been raised throughout this thread?

No, nothing. Also no one is pursuing the invitation in the one-on-one after Misanthropic Clown withdrew. Could it be the evidence in favor of the factuality of the BoM is a trifle thin?

 

[Watchmen]

You claimed that the church has 14 million plus members. The source I cited (Mormon) indicates that it has about 4 million active members.

Furthermore, given the average size of LDS families, if the Church's net growth is zero, they must be losing people faster than they're converting them.

Which is not to say no one converts to LDS, just that the single best predictor of anyone's adult religion is the religion they were raised in before reaching the age of discernment.

I didn't accuse you of making reckless claims without supporting sources, as some slandering liar did of me, failed to support his claim, and never withdrew or apologized for his accusation. (IIRC it wasn't you--was it?)

Regardless of the net growth, two-thirds are converts - people born and raised in the church leave - those converted stay and vice versa. There's a mix of generational Mormons and new Mormons. I'm confident you've met a first-generation Mormon before.

 

[LittleNipper]

And there you go twisting things again. My statement had nothing to do with some claim about the fastest growing religion. In fact, my last post (to madhatter) pointed out the error in claiming such.

And...here's my source: Coke Newell, "Latter Days" (St. Martin's Press, 2000). So, there are plenty of first generation converts in the Church. In fact, during a recent Priesthood lesson, the instructor asked the number of first-generation converts to raise their hand (it was about 50% of those present).

I believe the facts remain that first generation converts are generally people who either lack a deep understanding of the Bible or are searching for truth. In at least some of these cases (perhaps many) that is not where it ends. They find things out about mormonism that troubles them and they move on. Of course, leaving family and friends can be upsetting, but real friends remain.

 

[madhatter85]

An appeal to numbers doesn't support the Church's position regarding fulfillment of prophesy. The Seventh Day Adventists, for example, started after the Church and have almost twice as many members. I believe the same is for other groups as well.

It is not an appeal to numbers technically. There are many other scripturally founded prophecies that have happened in the church that I have seen with my own eyes.

 

[madhatter85]

I believe the facts remain that first generation converts are generally people who either lack a deep understanding of the Bible or are searching for truth. In at least some of these cases (perhaps many) that is not where it ends. They find things out about mormonism that troubles them and they move on. Of course, leaving family and friends can be upsetting, but real friends remain.

Actually it requires a deep understanding of the Bible to maintain being LDS :slap:

 

[Autodidact]

Regardless of the net growth, two-thirds are converts - people born and raised in the church leave - those converted stay and vice versa. There's a mix of generational Mormons and new Mormons. I'm confident you've met a first-generation Mormon before.

I met a guy who converted at around age 17.

I'm denying it. If the net growth is zero, then there must (math) not be that many converts, because Mormons tend to have lots of kids. Unless their kids are leaving the church in droves? Something is not adding up.

I'm guessing that if we poll the LDS members here at RF we will find that the great majority were born into Mormon families. Has this been done in the LDS forum? If not, are you willing?

And I repeat that the single best predictor of adult religious affiliation is childhood brainwashing.

 

[Autodidact]

Actually it requires a deep understanding of the Bible to maintain being LDS :slap:

And madhatter is in charge of deciding whose understanding is deeper.

 

[Humanistheart]

Actually it requires a deep understanding of the Bible to maintain being LDS :slap:

An opinion not suported by evidence.

 

[Humanistheart]

No, nothing. Also no one is pursuing the invitation in the one-on-one after Misanthropic Clown withdrew. Could it be the evidence in favor of the factuality of the BoM is a trifle thin?

That would seem to be the case.

 

[LittleNipper]

Actually it requires a deep understanding of the Bible to maintain being LDS :slap:

------------as understood entirely through the eyes of your prophet along with additional reading materials.

 

[madhatter85]

------------as understood entirely through the eyes of your prophet along with additional reading materials.

Actually, through the spirit. The prophet never said "take my word for it" he said (in essence), "Here is truth, you can be sure of it for yourselves through prayer."

 

[Autodidact]

Actually, through the spirit. The prophet never said "take my word for it" he said (in essence), "Here is truth, you can be sure of it for yourselves through prayer."

Oddly, when I tried that the response that came back was "No one home."

 

[Humanistheart]

I'm guessing he's next post will either blame you for that or be another random recipe. Is anyone trying to defend to BoM at this point, or have they all given up?

 

[jabberwockybruno]

I'm guessing he's next post will either blame you for that or be another random recipe. Is anyone trying to defend to BoM at this point, or have they all given up?

All the defenses have already been stated. Mostly the argument is that the Book of Mormon is infallible because of the good impact it has on people's lives. People read it and they feel really good and inspired and the whole course of their life changes for the better. It's true because it feels true; you pray and ask God if it is true and you feel a "stirring of the spirit" or a "burning in your bosom" which indicates that God is saying "Yes it's true and everything".

I refer you to Moroni 10 verses 3 through 6:
3 Behold,I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
(My Mormon friend who gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon referred me to those verses.)

That is the test you are supposed to use. That is the book's defense. When you pray to God with humbleness and sincerity in asking if it's true, you get the confirmation you're looking for. God is TELLING you that it is true. What more proof does one need?

 

[Sola'lor]

Oddly, when I tried that the response that came back was "No one home."

Well then that's probably the message God has for you right now.

 

[Autodidact]

Well then that's probably the message God has for you right now.

God's message was "I don't exist"? See any problem with that?