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What is the Authority of the New Testament?

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think you meant 'not in'. Testaments are the written will of the deceased, not the living.

These are the secret words which the living Jesus spoke, and Didymus Judas Thomas wrote them down.

I did mean that, sorry. Anyway, the Gospel of Thomas is not found in the bible. I corrected it so thanks.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why do people believe that the New Testament is authoritative?
They've been told it is and have accepted that uncritically. They believe that a deity exists that channeled its revelation to man. Skeptics don't believe that because there is no reason to believe it and plenty of reasons not to.
what does "inspired by God" mean?
They're weasel words: "words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading." "Inspired by" means changed from the original. It's what you say when you can no longer assert that the scriptures aren't in part or whole the words of men but want to keep the presence of a deity in the words. The problem is that if any of it isn't from a god, then none of it might be.

And even if some of the words are the words of a god, there is no test for discerning which should be viewed as such, and which can be ignored.

The Flintstones were inspired by The Honeymooners. If you're familiar with both shows, you know what aspects of the Flintstones mirror The Honeymooners, but if you only knew one, you couldn't guess what the other was like, which is the problem with using that phrase without a clear depiction of what the original, pre-inspired form was.

Suppose I told you that the Flintstones is set in prehistoric times and is about two blue collar worker who were friends and neighbors and who were married to giggly wives one of which was very cynical and the other not, and that eventually both had pets and children. How much of that comes from the Honeymooners and how much was created by Hanna-Barbera? Suppose I told you to disregard that latter part and only pay attention to the aspects that were faithful to the original. You can't. You have no reliable test to distinguish which is which if you don't have the original, unadulterated version.

The same is true with scripture. You can't tell which parts if any come from the deity.

I just saw this the other night on Jeopardy! (a rerun). These answers will illustrate what "inspired by" means:


I also believe that it contains many artificial stories intended to serve a purpose.
So do I. Several of the myths exist to reconcile the world as man finds it with the belief that it was created by an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god. The ancients had to deal with the dilemmas such beliefs created, such as why do we not live in paradise or have immortality, or why are there so many mutually unintelligible languages in the world, or why would God drown most of the earth.

The solution was always to blame man and say he deserved these things. I believe that that is the purpose of those myths - to make God good despite so much apparent malice by making man bad and punishing him in a way that believers consider just, kind, and loving, but skeptics understand differently.
You fail to make a valid argument as to why it isn't authoritative
None is needed. The believer who claims that it should be authoritative in all lives has to make a compelling argument to those who don't agree why it is, which can then be evaluated for soundness. He has no such argument.
Man is Not headed to Peace but to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14
This is one of the consequences of accepting dogma uncritically. Much of it is dark and pessimistic. It robs the believer of the joy of life. And it gives the believer reason to ignore efforts at peace or protecting the environment, for example.

Speaking of which, I got a visit from a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses not too long ago. I don't always answer the door for them, but when Ido, I am cheerful and respectful.

They were respectful as well but had a very dismal view of the state of the world and seemed to assume that anybody paying attention would as well, unaware that their opinions weren't based in experience, but rather in religious indoctrination. They seem stumped when I told them that although there are still too many people living needlessly difficult lives, there are also many living full lives - more than ever before in history. I pointed out that their lives were good living in the same tropical paradise as me and my other neighbors, where the weather is excellent, the foliage never ending, and we are safe, free, and are not suffering from privation or poverty.

They politely thanked me and left. I was stunned. It was if they had never heard that before and were disoriented upon hearing it. How sad that that had been done to them. My world was beautiful and friendly whereas theirs was horrible and going downhill quickly, yet it was the same world but experienced through different worldviews.
Jesus understood and accepted Scripture, Not through 'blind faith' (credulity) but Jesus used logical reasoning on the OT explaining and expounding Scripture for us
Uh, no. Show me some reasoning from Jesus. Show me his argument for a god or an afterlife existing. You can't - just claims at best.

So no to scripture being logical.
No to it being a reliable or authoritative source.
No to the US Constitution being based in scripture
No to science being an offshoot of Christianity because many Renaissance scientists were Christian.
And no to humanism being derived from Christian scripture.

These are all examples of Christianity trying to claim credit for itself for the blessings of non-Christian thought. Logic belongs to critical thinking and empiricism, not religious dogma.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think you meant 'not in'. Testaments are the written will of the deceased, not the living.

These are the secret words which the living Jesus spoke, and Didymus Judas Thomas wrote them down.

Your link (with picture) proves you wrong! LOL!
 

Anne1

Member
The authority of the New Testament is part of sacred tradition, given by the apostles. Apostolic tradition was passed from one bishop -- actually, in 1 Timothy Paul calls them 'overseers" -- who held to the true tradition and refuted heresy.

By 95 AD the bishop of Rome in 1 Clement insisted on apostolic tradition, as did Bishop Ignatius in his letters in 110 AD.

About 60% of the Christians of today are Catholic or Orthodox, and these hold to apostolic tradition.

The so-called Gospel of Thomas is a Syriac Gnostic invention from, at the earliest, about 180 AD.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The authority of the New Testament is part of sacred tradition, given by the apostles. Apostolic tradition was passed from one bishop -- actually, in 1 Timothy Paul calls them 'overseers" -- who held to the true tradition and refuted heresy.
In Acts the actual overseer was James the Just, who put Paul to the test because of the allegations that he taught against the law. This led to the riot at the temple and to Paul eventually being brought before King Agrippa (Acts 26), where Paul contradicted the original account in Acts regarding what Paul was told to do, where he was told, and who told him.

Also, Paul and his companions fit the description of the false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus (Rev 2:2, Acts 19:9).
 

Anne1

Member
In Acts the actual overseer was James the Just, who put Paul to the test because of the allegations that he taught against the law. This led to the riot at the temple and to Paul eventually being brought before King Agrippa (Acts 26), where Paul contradicted the original account in Acts regarding what Paul was told to do, where he was told, and who told him.

Also, Paul and his companions fit the description of the false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus (Rev 2:2, Acts 19:9).
--------------

Sorry, no. We have 2,000 years and the constant teaching of the church against such heresies. Sorry, but your beliefs are against all church teaching, all church councils, and the constant teaching since the earliest Christian documents.

Here are two good books to give you background: "The Theology of Paul the Apostle" and "Beginning from Jerusalem Christianity in the Making" both by James Dunn.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Sorry, no. We have 2,000 years and the constant teaching of the church against such heresies.
Your problem is that the "heresy" is treated as actual history according the church's canonical texts.

Do you have any documents that show that James wasn't regarded as an authority by the early Christians?

Do your books have any answer to the question of who the false apostles of Revelation 2:2 were?
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why do people believe that the New Testament is authoritative? For example, what does "inspired by God" mean? Why do you believe that it is inspired by God.

This is not from an atheist perspective. I believe in God.

I believe that the New Testament has some objective truths. I also believe that it contains many artificial stories intended to serve a purpose.
When someone believes a text is of a divine original, they inevitably grant authority to that text. A better question might by, why do people assume that a text is of divine origin? There are many reasons, but I think the most common one is confirmation bias. If someone already believes a text is divine (perhaps they grew up with this belief, or picked it up from their culture via osmosis), they will interpret any evidence or experience in a way that supports this view.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In Acts the actual overseer was James the Just, who put Paul to the test because of the allegations that he taught against the law. This led to the riot at the temple and to Paul eventually being brought before King Agrippa (Acts 26), where Paul contradicted the original account in Acts regarding what Paul was told to do, where he was told, and who told him.

Also, Paul and his companions fit the description of the false apostles that were rejected at Ephesus (Rev 2:2, Acts 19:9).
Galatians 2:9, "James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.
 

Anne1

Member
Your problem is that the "heresy" is treated as actual history according the church's canonical texts.
Do you mean that for 2,000 years Christianity has taught heresy? God allowed billions of people to follow error? For 2,000 years?

James was head of the church in Jerusalem. We know the family of Jesus continued to be devout followers of Christianity for at least through the end of the 300s. Julius Africanus mentions meeting some members, and during the Decian persecution there was a martyr who said “I am of the family of Christ”

You can interpret Revelation as you wish, but for 2,000 years all Catholic and Orthodox scholarship differs.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Do you mean that for 2,000 years Christianity has taught heresy? God allowed billions of people to follow error? For 2,000 years?
Yes, it was always part of the plan.

And YHWH said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, [which] shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Zechariah 11:15-16

James was head of the church in Jerusalem.
Calling the ecclesia a church is misleading, since churches are associated with Pauline Christianity and there was doctrinal conflict between Paul and James over faith vs works. The problem with faith was described by Habakkuk:

For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Habakkuk 2:3-5

We know the family of Jesus continued to be devout followers of Christianity for at least through the end of the 300s. Julius Africanus mentions meeting some members, and during the Decian persecution there was a martyr who said “I am of the family of Christ”
The name of Christ is from the Hebrew word Messiah, which doesn't conform with Christian soteriology. James was called the bother of Jesus so it's most likely that the family followed the tradition of James rather than that of Paul.

You can interpret Revelation as you wish, but for 2,000 years all Catholic and Orthodox scholarship differs.
Orthodox scholarship is based in part on Roman religious traditions which were political rather than idealistic. The political issues were central to the false accusations that led to the crucifixion.

For interpretations to be reliable they should be consistent with the available facts, like the interpretation that Revelation 2:2 is about the events of Acts 19. AFAIK there is no robust alternative interpretation for that.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Do you mean that for 2,000 years Christianity has taught heresy? God allowed billions of people to follow error? For 2,000 years?
How dare you make sense. :) I may not be a Christian, but I still find the sort of remarks "we are the one true faith even though there are only 300 of us and we've only been around for 40 years" to be highly amusing.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Your statement about the trinity is nothing more than your opinion. I and others clearly see the Trinity in Scripture. If you disagree, then explain this verse: “When the Advocate [The Holy Spirit] comes, whom I [Jesus] will send to you from the Father [God]—the [Holy] Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father [The Holy Spirit]—he [The Holy Spirit] will testify about me [Jesus].
The Holy Spirit is mentioned four times. Jesus sends Him from God (the Father) to His disciples to testify about Him.
Yes, the holy spirit goes out from the Father [the holy spirit] as Psalm 104:30 says
Just as God's un-named spirit was ' poured out ' at Pentecost - Acts 2:17-18; Proverbs 1:23 A
Numbers 11:17,25 is Not my opinion but Holy Scripture that God's spirit is a neuter "it"
Greek grammar rules allows a neuter to be referred to as a he, but a neuter remains a neuter 'it'.
Just as in English a ship being referred to as a she but the ship remains a neuter 'it'
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The apocryphal books simply exclude themselves because of being out of harmony with the 66 harmonious Bible books
In my bible there are 73 books and they are all in harmony. Just pointing that out.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
....................................................................................................................................................
Uh, no. Show me some reasoning from Jesus. Show me his argument for a god or an afterlife existing. You can't - just claims at best.
So no to scripture being logical.
No to it being a reliable or authoritative source.
No to the US Constitution being based in scripture
No to science being an offshoot of Christianity because many Renaissance scientists were Christian.
And no to humanism being derived from Christian scripture.
These are all examples of Christianity trying to claim credit for itself for the blessings of non-Christian thought. Logic belongs to critical thinking and empiricism, not religious dogma.
First of all, please notice Psalm 73 because like today there are many prosperous people but that does Not make the Bible as wrong

Second, Jesus did Not teach 'afterlife' ( being more alive after death than before death )
Rather Jesus taught future 'resurrection' - John 6:40,44 - being resurrected from death's deep sleep - John 11:11-14
Jesus' teaching is in harmony with Acts 24:15 that ' there will be' (future) a resurrection........
Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures which teach ' sheep ' Not life in death
- Psalm 6:5; Psalm 13:3; Psalm 115:17; Isaiah 38:18 besides Ecclesiastes 9:5
Jesus was using logic with the old Hebrew Scriptures. False clergy are the ones who do Not use logic but religious traditions -Matt/ 15:9
Jesus was a Theocrat, so 'No' and the US Constitution seems to have built in changes other than what Jesus taught
Known science was around before 1st-century Christianity including the 'water cycle' found at Job 36;27-28
By humanism we do find in Scripture the Golden Rule of Leviticus 19:18
We also find Jesus' New Commandment found at John 13:34-35
We are Now to love neighbor MORE than self, in other words, more than the old Golden Rule
We are Now to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has
 
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