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What is the Left (politically)?

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
The left and right in politics has it’s roots in the seating arrangements in the French National Assembly at the time of the revolution, I believe. Those seated on the right supported the ancien regime of the Bourbons, those on the left supported it’s replacement with a secular democratic republic. Neither socialism nor communism existed as political philosophies until around the mid 19th Century. So in general terms left has meant progressive, while right has meant conservative, though definitions of both have been fluid.
 

rocala

Well-Known Member
Democrat leaders are:
- phony
- big liars
- lugubrious
- sly
- sneaky
- lunatics
Quite possibly. The real problem is that this type of politics has two ingredients. Firstly their is your ideals which may be truly noble. Secondly there are simple practicalities such as keeping the voters on side and awareness of a hostile media. The two are often in opposition to each other.

This is why many on the left have believed that without a revolutionary perspective, it is an impossible struggle.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Quite possibly. The real problem is that this type of politics has two ingredients. Firstly their is your ideals which may be truly noble. Secondly there are simple practicalities such as keeping the voters on side and awareness of a hostile media. The two are often in opposition to each other.

This is why many on the left have believed that without a revolutionary perspective, it is an impossible struggle.
If I were an American Citizen, I would be disposed to let them kill me, in order to obtain free universal healthcare. In a revolution.
Because that's what they are. Assassins.
But at least my reward will be to know that my fellow Citizens can enjoy free healthcare.
 

averageJOE

zombie
We need to end US wars, and cut military budget 50%.
We need a living wage.
We need free community colleges.
We need universal healthcare.
We need criminal justice reform (end qualified immunity, make cops pay for their own liability insurance, have a percentage of settlements and 100% of medical bills come from department budgets, have investigations continue and follow cops even if they quit or transfer)
We need to cut police spending.
We need to end the drug war.
We need rank choice voting.
We need to ban corporate lobbying.
We need term limits in Congress and Senate.
We need to ban private prisons.

(This is just from the top of my head.)
 

Soandso

ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
If I were an American Citizen, I would be disposed to let them kill me, in order to obtain free universal healthcare. In a revolution.
Because that's what they are. Assassins.
But at least my reward will be to know that my fellow Citizens can enjoy free healthcare.

I don't understand your logic... What?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I guess I am the only true leftist (except very few people, one or two) on RF. No offense
;)

It's saddening and disheartening to realize that there are too many people who declare themselves "leftists", but actually roll red carpets at bankers and speculators.

There are even bankers who have the cheekiness to call themselves "leftists".
It's like as if the KFC CEO declared himself as the leader of the "chicken's for life movement"
It is grotesque...not to say ridiculous.

So I am asking the members of the Soŕosian Left: what do you mean by Left when you call yourself "a leftist"?

Merci beaucoup pour vos réponses.❤

I guess there are several different ways of defining it. Traditionally, the left has focused on economic and social justice, whereas conservatives tended to cling to the status quo just for the sake of clinging to the status quo. In that sense, the left has generally been more flexible and open to change, whereas the conservatives are the "old dogs" who refuse to learn new tricks.

On the other hand, in recent times, I've noticed quite a number of purported "leftists" who tend to sound more like Republicans when discussing economic issues. Support of NAFTA, opposition to tariffs, opposition to socialized medicine - these are conservative positions, yet so many from the left have embraced it.

Also, quite a number of supposed "leftists" take more questionable positions in civil liberties (such as the War on Drugs and opposition to legalization of marijuana, among other things). At one time, leftists were very much against warmongering and military interventionism around the world, but they've also reversed that position, too.

Not all leftists are necessarily communists or socialists, but they do share in common a tendency to root for the underdog, whereas conservatives tend to be on the side of the establishment and big business to keep the underdog down. But nowadays, who can say? There are liberals who root for the wealthy and powerful against the poor. It seems that a leftist should root for the poor against the wealthy. Otherwise, what's the point of being a leftist in the first place?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
And...
Nobody denies his war policies were monstrous, that his alliance with the Nazis was monstrous, but at least he worked for the proletariat as a true leftist would.
What's your point? It doesn't redeem or absolve him.
Unlike the yacht-loving democratic party.

Democratic Party Achievements, Benefits and Programs
The following benefits and programs were accomplished through the tireless work of Democratic Presidents, Senators and Congress members.
Democrats act on the core belief that government should actually work to benefit ordinary working Americans.
Democratic Party Achievements, Benefits and Programs
19th AmendmentWomen's right to vote
Apollo 11First manned moon mission
Social SecuritySocial insurance program
MedicareHealth insurance for seniors
NATONorth Atlantic Treaty Organization – the political and military alliance between the US, Canada and Europe
MedicaidHealth care program for low income people
Securities and Exchange Act LawOversee the trading of securities and protect investors
Rural Electrification ActFederal loans for the installation of electricity to serve rural areas
Peace CorpsAmerican volunteers promoting friendship, goodwill and peace around the world
Unemployment BenefitsTemporary payments to the unemployed
Fair Labor Standards ActEnding the cruel practice of child labor
Servicemen's Readjustment ActThe GI Bill, which has benefited millions of returning soldiers
Federal Home Loan ProgramGuaranteed loans that allowed millions of Americans to become homeowners
National Industrial Recovery Act8 hour workday, minimum wage, paid overtime, and the right to collective bargaining
National School Lunch ActFree or low-cost meals for children who might otherwise go hungry
Voting Rights ActProhibits discrimination in voting
National Foundation for Infantile ParalysisForerunner of the March of Dimes
Head Start ProgramComprehensive services for low income families
Civil Rights ActProhibits discrimination and protects civil rights
Marshall Plan European Recovery ActRebuilt a secure and peaceful Europe after World War II
Financial Aid for Higher Education LoansGuaranteed student loans that enabled over 50 million Americans to receive a college education
Family and Medical Leave ActTemporary unpaid leave and job protection to employees – for qualified medical and family reasons
Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay ActProtect workers against pay discrimination
Patient Protection and Affordable Care ActHealth care reform: Preventive care screening, lower prescription drug costs, protection for pre-existing conditions among many other benefits
American Rescue Plan Act of 2021Pandemic recovery, economic stimulus payments, free vaccines, funeral expense assistance, expanded child tax credits, block grants for schools, funds for small business and many other benefits
 

anotherneil

Well-Known Member
Being a leftist means to side with the employees and never with employers.
Then that means that you would support the banning of the existence of employers entirely, otherwise you're siding with employers by opposing having them banned.

Is this a problem to you, to call for banning employers entirely?

It means to value respect and solidarity between social classes.
How exactly is this implemented? What specifics does it entail?

Should someone be stuck perpetually in the lower social classes & would this be something you call valuing respect and solidarity between social classes?

Should the state make it easier or harder for people to move up in class?

It means to believe in a strict State that protects the weakest classes and punishes the abuses of the capitalists.
Does this description fit, in any way, onto what the following current and defunct nations are doing or have done: USSR, Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Fascist Italy, Cuba, Venezuela, Red China, North Korea?

I chose to be a leftist because injustices really bother me. They make me freak out like crazy

;)
Have you ever heard the expression "life is not fair"?

Would a 100% tax on everything be a solution for dealing with injustices?

Is wealth and income inequality an injustice? If so, how can you condone the existence of more than one social class, which you are doing by virtue of in effect advocating for respect and solidarity between social classes?

We can have wealth and income equality by making everyone have no money at all (everyone has $0.00 in their wallets, bank accounts, etc.); would that be a solution for dealing with injustice that you'd support?

Or, why don't we just have the state give everyone $50 million dollars? It wouldn't even need to run any money printing presses; it could just credit everyone's bank account with $50 million dollars.

Which do you think is worse, an employer with a boss who makes 1,000 times more than what the average employee makes, which is more than enough for the employees to make ends meet, or no employer to provide jobs? I would rather have a boss who makes 1,000 times more than what I make than be unemployed.

Now, you might want to call foul and say that I'm pitching a false dichotomy, because it ignores the boss who makes the same as I do as a choice or possibility & if that's the case then let me ask you this:

If you were to get paid the same no matter what occupation you have, would you prefer to take one of the easiest occupations available, or would you rather take one of the most difficult occupations available?

I'll tell you what I would choose; if I had the option of taking a job as an electrical engineer for $25/hr or a job pushing a mop for $25/hr, I'd rather take the mop jockey gig, because it's much easier. It's challenging to be an electrical engineer; it involves having to make difficult decisions, including decisions that mean the design could be flawed, or won't work, or be dangerous enough to injure or kill people. Don't forget, in order to become an electrical engineer, you have to spend years in college studying very hard to earn an electrical engineering degree. No one has to spend years in college to learn how to drive a mop; anyone can start earning a paycheck working as a janitor immediately, and they won't have to worry so much about doing something that could injure or kill people, as long as they don't forget to prop up those yellow Cuidado Piso Mojado signs.

Let's say that in a world where everyone gets paid the same rate no matter what their occupation is, everyone wants the easiest jobs (janitors, fry cooks, stock clerks, waiters/waitresses, mowing lawns, etc.). Who's going to go through the trouble to take the more difficult occupations, whether it's physicians, nurses, carpenters, plumbers, police officers, engineers, lawyers, accountants, or any other vocational or professional type of background that requires training, skills, and experience? These type of occupations need to be filled by someone, and without the incentive to go through the trouble to fill them, no one's going to fill them.

Perhaps you're thinking that there are only so many slots for janitors, fry cooks, stock clerks, waiters/waitresses, mowing lawns, etc. so everyone else can go fill the rest of the occupations. Do you really want someone who wasn't clever enough to even land a career as a janitor performing open heart surgery on you?

The point is that the political left doesn't seem to even understand how to think through their logic all the way through to the end, to what the conclusion is, to what the consequences are, to what the implications are for the positions they take, etc. or maybe they just don't care.

I'm not saying that there are no injustices out there, but I think in almost every case society has figured out how to best deal with them. What the left is doing in almost every case is fabricating narratives of injustices that haven't been mitigated as best they can and falsely leading people to believe that they have a solution for a non-existent or solved problem; then, they make things worse, blame the political right, and go through this repetitious and endless cycle of making things worse and blaming the political right.

It's actually more complicated than that, because the political right is not necessarily blameless, and this political left-right paradigm is a false dichotomy (e.g. it leaves out room for libertarianism). In practice, the left & right are the two wings of the same hideous beast. In some cases the solution to injustice may be to oppose what both the political left and right want to do.

I'll actually give you one example of what I think is an injustice - there's no compensation in exchange for recognition of property rights; for example, I don't get compensated to recognize that someone else owns a plot of land full of apple trees and to let them put up a fence to keep me and others out. I'm not saying I'm opposed to property rights per se; what I'm saying is that natural resources that anyone would've normally had access to is being blocked, and compensation isn't being provided for that. A true free market means there's some sort of agreement or compensation for something; the way we practice capitalism today involves property rights with neither agreement nor compensation.

Earlier, I brought up the idea about life not being fair & it's one thing when that unfairness is the result of natural causes, but that doesn't justify unfairness from other people. It also doesn't mean that it's ok to throw out the baby with the bath water, which is what policies like a minimum wage actually do.

Anyhow, I'm not just going to point out an injustice, I'll also mention a solution that I propose for this problem I described associated with property rights: basically this solution I propose would be like a UBI, with the main difference being that it has to actually be based on a dividend as a function of the performance of the economy (otherwise it'll cause inflation and could drive the economy into the ground).

You can disagree with me if you wish, but I get the impression that your solution for dealing with injustices doesn't necessarily exclude ideas or actions that are or could result in even bigger injustices or disasters for society.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
They are the worst liars in world history.
MAGA Repubklicans led by Trump, yes.
They are doing nothing to implement free universal healthcare.
Republicans are notoriously opposed to healthcare reform of any kind. They tried 72 times to repeal the ACA (ObamaCare). They failed. When Trump got in office and had a republican majority they created a new healthcare plan at the federal level, and it was so bad that even some republicans wouldn't vote for it.

I won't be duped by anyone.
Too late. Somehow you claim to be socialist but hate the one American party that is closest to your views. Yet you love republicans who don't want anything you champion. Quite odd.
This is a real excuse they made up.
They can make a law giving healthcare to the single states.
No, states can't borrow money like the federal governmen can, and they don't have the resources to do it. That's especially true for poor states.
The House and the Senate were BLUE at least once.

Democrat leaders are:
- phony
- big liars
- lugubrious
- sly
- sneaky
- lunatics
More claims with zero evidence = throw out what you say.
 
Those seated on the right supported the ancien regime of the Bourbons, those on the left supported it’s replacement with a secular democratic republic.

Since the beginning it has been a way to cluster beliefs together in a way that encourage irrationality and tribalism.

So in general terms left has meant progressive, while right has meant conservative, though definitions of both have been fluid.

Quite a lot more than fluid I'd say.

The Nazis were progressive as were the Soviets.

Bismarck and Disraeli were conservatives who promoted social welfare policies.

In the 1970s the 'left' was against the EU, now much of the "left" sees being against the EU as the domain of reactionary bigots who dream of an imperial past.

Trump's protectionist policies are more traditionally 'left wing' than similar policies of the Democrats.

While we may use them as a lazy but convenient shorthand, their main purpose is to weld people to a tribal identity rather than consider policies and actions on their own merit. They have no real meaning, just that which each side gives them at a particular point in time, which usually sanctimoniously lionises their side while demonising the other side with facile half-truths.

I'd say they are actively harmful terms in terms of political discourse.
 
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