TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Ukraine (or any other country) joining NATO is only a problem for countries who want to have the freedom to attack said country without risking it to be seen as an attack on all countries that are NATO members.
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What is the NATO?
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Ah, right.
I forgot that many élites still see it as a banking dictatorship: a central power of technocrats serving the interests of insatiable bankers.
Do you know them personally, since you live in Belgium?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That's not even remotely similar to what I actually said.Ah, right.
I forgot that many élites still see it as a banking dictatorship: a central power of technocrats serving the interests of insatiable bankers.
Do you know them personally, since you live in Belgium?
Try again.
Now that Orban is President of the European Council, I am confident things will get better.
You know...I prefer ballsy patriots as representative...not some technocrat from some banking élite.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
This also has nothing to do with what I actually said.Now that Orban is President of the European Council, I am confident things will get better.
You know...I prefer ballsy patriots as representative...not some technocrat from some banking élite.
Having said that, yes, we all know you have a sweetspot for facists with dictatorial aspiration.
I think Orban wanted his country to join the NATO because he thought that it was an organization ensuring peace and justice.
As I said, I feel like vomiting whenever I think of the NATO, also because it openly defaces many articles in the Italian Constitution,
and maybe of other European constitutions as well.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
So far, almost everything you had to say about NATO turned out to be flat out wrong.
Like your Kosovo rant. Which, incidentally, you are very silent about when I pointed out it was actually a UN operation based on security council resolution 1244.
This entire thread is indistinguishable from lying Russian propaganda. Pure misinformation. To the point that I wonder if you actually also believe what you say.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Nope. The discussion you jumped into was about Russia, Putin and Ukraine. You keep injecting Kosovo as if it's relevant. It's whataboutism. It denotes bad faith.The title of the thread: what is the NATO?
Kosovo was a NATO operation...so avoiding the topic is highly suspicious. It denotes bad faith.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Yes, I know it's disputed. I was using the points from the article posted. Maybe I should have been more clear about that. That is one of their points, and they provide some evidence for it. I agree with you that it's still very much in doubt, but even if it's true, so what? So they made a promise in order to further the goal of disbanding the USSR. That kind of promise wouldn't extend much beyond that goal anyway.That's a point often argued.
On what basis do you claim it?
What say you about counter arguments
that negotiations having led up to an
agreement that contained no such promise?
Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No"
Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...www.brookings.edu
Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion
Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative cwww.politifact.com
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Ah, yes, the old "If you don't see the problem, then I can't help you" deflection. Instead of attempting to address a salient point, you just pretend you don't want to. Pretty poor debating/discussion skills there.
The fact is Ukraine is its own country. Russia should have zero say in what they do. If they want to join NATO, then Russia shouldn't have anything to say about it.
The very thing that happened just proved why Ukraine wants to join NATO in the first place. Basically Putin just made their case for them. I get why Putin doesn't want them to join, but that's only a problem for him. It shouldn't be considered a problem other than that.
With all due respect.
This thread is about NATO...this is my thread and I decide that it's about NATO.
You have done nothing but talk about Russia.
Come on...
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
With all due respect, you started this thread because of Russia. We were talking about the topic here, and then you jumped in to bring up your whataboutism again.With all due respect.
This thread is about NATO...this is my thread and I decide that it's about NATO.
You have done nothing but talk about Russia.
Come on...
Come on.
Tell me where I pronounced the word Russia in the opening post.
Come on.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
We're talking about Russia because that's the big topic right now. On that topic, you and others made extreme criticisms of NATO. So, you started this thread to bash NATO (because of the current discussions of Russia's invasion of Ukraine).
No, you're wrong.
I started this thread because of the 75th anniversary last week.
I find the NATO vomitous for what happened in Libya...so bringing up Russia is really a desperate attempt to save the NATO from criticism.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Nope. This thread is in the context of all the talk of the Russian invasion. Plus, NATO was begun in response to the USSR. This particular part of the thread came from someone pointing that out, and you saying the Berlin Wall fell in 1989. I then responded to another poster on the topic of Putin wanting the USSR back, and you replied to that topic.
So, that's the topic at hand. Kosovo has nothing to do with Putin or the current situation. It's whataboutism.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Exactly. And why anyone thinks they should have any say in that is beyond me. Why should we care whether Russia wants Ukraine to join NATO or not?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Idd. The fact that Russia is so up in arms about it, just goes to show what their motives and plans are.
I mean, let's project this unto schoolyard social situations.
Suppose a classmate of me enters into an "alliance" with a bunch of other classmates saying that "attacking one to take his lunch money is considered an attack on all of them and all will come to eachother's aid". Why would that bother me?
It would only bother me if I am a bully who plans on taking classmate's lunch money.
If I have no interest in attacking class mates and / or taking their lunch money, why in the world would I care about such an alliance?
It wouldn't affect me at all.
Promises proffered during negotiations are part
of back-&-forth give-&-take negotiation. They're
superseded by what is codified in formal agreement.