What is the US interest in Ukraine?

[mikkel_the_dane]

Some people feel safe and protected by this Nato war alliance or war pact, you know how it is with xenophobia and the fears that go along with that sort of thing.

Well, there is in the end the problem of luck. You are lucky enough that you don't have the problem of war as you. So you judge all other people based on in the end that you are lucky to have the life you have.
In the end I accept that you have the luxury of pacifism but that is because in the past people have died fighting to protect that luxury.

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Some people feel safe and protected by this Nato war alliance or war pact, you know how it is with xenophobia and the fears that go along with that sort of thing.

No, I do not "know how it is" -- at least, not as you seem to think.

When one is threatened by a strong, authoritarian menace, one finds strength in numbers. Russia would not dare to invade and abuse a NATO nation the way it is invading and abusing Ukraine.

Not to me. Supporting war, picking sides is tribal. All that civilised people can do is try not to get caught in the crossfire.

While you are reclining in your comfy chair and smugly pontificating on what civilized people do or do not do, others are fighting for their very existence. Keep in mind that when aggressors are not challenged and they (God forbid) win, they go looking for their next victim. That next victim could be you.

I am very grateful for the civilized people who took a stand and fought against the aggressors of World War II. I pray that the aid that both the U.S. and European nations are providing to Ukraine will be enough to help them stand against the aggressor that they are faced with today.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, I do not "know how it is" -- at least, not as you seem to think.

When one is threatened by a strong, authoritarian menace, one finds strength in numbers. Russia would not dare to invade and abuse a NATO nation the way it is invading and abusing Ukraine.


While you are reclining in your comfy chair and smugly pontificating on what civilized people do or do not do, others are fighting for their very existence. Keep in mind that when aggressors are not challenged and they (God forbid) win, they go looking for their next victim. That next victim could be you.

I am very grateful for the civilized people who took a stand and fought against the aggressors of World War II. I pray that the aid that both the U.S. and European nations are providing to Ukraine will be enough to help them stand against the aggressor that they are faced with today.

Now this is too simple. But there is some truth to it. A language and culture is over time only possible with an ability to do war. In linguistics you get the following joke: A language is a dialect with an army and navy. The same thing in effect with a culture and a modern nation state.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, they aren't.

Proof of the morality actually practiced
is in the decisions that every country
makes regarding whom they support.

You could have said "some are more or less useful to specific causes," but the way you worded it is quite troubling at best. Rwandan lives are no less important than Ukrainian ones, and vice versa.

You get the meaning, but want it worded differently?
Nah.

What you're saying here seems to imply that if genocide were carried out in my country tomorrow, our lives would be less important as long as the perpetrators didn't pose a threat to NATO. I'm not sure whether you see how concerning that sounds to someone from the same region as Rwanda.

You're making an overly specific & mischievous
claim based upon a generalization that you
apparently understand, eh.

So it's all about geopolitics, after all? Going by what you said, it sounds like human rights, democracy, and the other mantras the US touts aren't exactly the main motive for aiding people in other countries against war crimes and mass murder.

I'll just say that geopolitics & threats to oneself are
very important. I don't know of a single country
that doesn't place its own interests above the
lives of foreigners.
You might say this is wrong, but it's impractical to
treat every human life equally. Morality is far more
complex than universal equality preached by faiths.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am giving you a "like" for what I (hopefully correctly) see as deliberate irony in your statement.

Of course NATO is not the determining factor for the value of a human life.

I intend no irony.
Just recognizing the situation.
Equality of all humans is a comforting value to
hold, but it's impossible for a country to practice.
For one thing, there are too many humans with
dire needs. Another is that foreign policies that
serve national defense are essential to survival.

 

[lukethethird]

No, I do not "know how it is" -- at least, not as you seem to think.

When one is threatened by a strong, authoritarian menace, one finds strength in numbers. Russia would not dare to invade and abuse a NATO nation the way it is invading and abusing Ukraine.


While you are reclining in your comfy chair and smugly pontificating on what civilized people do or do not do, others are fighting for their very existence. Keep in mind that when aggressors are not challenged and they (God forbid) win, they go looking for their next victim. That next victim could be you.

I am very grateful for the civilized people who took a stand and fought against the aggressors of World War II. I pray that the aid that both the U.S. and European nations are providing to Ukraine will be enough to help them stand against the aggressor that they are faced with today.

The red line was drawn decades ago, bringing Nato missiles into Ukraine is bringing them too close to Russia. Ukraine joining Nato can cause a nuclear holocaust so what's the point in arguing about that? How about when we are all dead we try arguing as to why the line was drawn there. Are you aware of the Cuban missile crisis, and how that was resolved? Cuba is a red line as well, as we all learned.

Cuban Missile Crisis - Wikipedia

 

[Stevicus]

Well, there is in the end the problem of luck. You are lucky enough that you don't have the problem of war as you. So you judge all other people based on in the end that you are lucky to have the life you have.
In the end I accept that you have the luxury of pacifism but that is because in the past people have died fighting to protect that luxury.

Well, at least in America, we've been fortunate to some degree.

 

[lukethethird]

Unfortunately, belligerent, authoritarian, warmongering, imperialist states like Russia make military pacts these days strictly necessary. Russia's history of political interference, war crimes and outright annexation of neighbouring countries is what makes agreements like NATO necessary.


Completely dishonest framing. There is no "war pact against Russia". NATO is a DEFENSIVE alliance. They pose no threat to Russia whatsoever. The only problem they pose for Russia is that they make it impossible for Russia to interfere with or invade other countries. An alliance borne out of a need to protect yourself against a nation that threatens to invade you is not "a war pact against that country" and it is frankly totally dishonest to say so.


Too bad. Russia doesn't get to decide what sovereign states choose to do. If Ukraine wishes to join NATO, that is its right. We do not form international treaties and alliances based on the desires of states who want their neighbours to remain unprotected so that they can invade them. That's like refusing to walk a friend home late at night because that wouldn't be fair to anyone who may want to sexually assault them. Maybe Russia should not expect to be allowed to assault its neighbours.


Russia was not provoked. They have been given assurances that Ukraine would not join NATO but have continued to invade - under false pretexts - anyway.


In other words: if we let imperialist bullies dictate what smaller, neighbouring countries can do and deliberately keep them weak so that they can be invaded and politically interfered with.

No, screw that. Russia doesn't get to decide Ukraine's alliances. Ukraine does. Russia can swivel.


NATO is a defensive pact. Stop calling it a "war pact". That is a lie.


Ukraine is not being used in any way, shape or form and it is disgusting of you to imply such. They are fighting against Russia of their own accord. They are not being forced. They don't want to be occupied by a genocidal regime run by an imperialist lunatic. That is their right. They are being allowed the opportunity to fight back. If Russia was worried about being weakened, it would have pulled out a year ago. Or not even invaded to begin with.



Russia is refusing to engage in meaningful peace talks. They started the war. They have been given assurances that Ukraine would not join NATO and it made no difference.

Your arguments are lies and trash. Do better.

Ukraine joining Nato or merely threatening to, as was the case, can cause a nuclear holocaust. Ukraine is a red line and and has been for decades, that's the way it is whether we agree with it or not. What happens when you poke a bear? What happens when you threaten to cross the red line? There is no justification for what Putin has done by sending in the troops, but we can't say we didn't know this would happen.

 

[Kathryn]

@Kathryn
Here is a real world example. Allowing Russia control of Ukraine changes the balance of who controls a part of the world's grain product. That can lead to instability that can effect the USA.

Yeah I get that's the narrative. If the US has any interests in Ukraine, then I say go for it - otherwise, stay out of it.

 

[Kathryn]

Yeah, you are not in the world and yet alone in the world. You are not interconnect to the rest of the world, because you are so special.
The price of trading with the world and making money off that, is that the stability of the world becomes important.

So you want to have your cake and eat it too.

I just want cake. I don't mind making it. I just don't want to make and pay for everyone else's cake.

 

[Kathryn]

I know that sounds like a big number, but it's a small slice of our defense budget.

The world is interconnected. "Taking care of our own people" is an understandable instinct, but ignores how events overseas affect everyone, especially the world's superpowers. Ignoring Russian aggression would be deeply foolish.

Did you know there's a huge war going on in Ethiopia right now? With thousands of casualties and over 2 million people displaced? I don't ever hear about it.

 

[Kathryn]

Yeah, it is all a joke and you are the best one as for being funny as that is all that counts. Or in other words, it is all your feelings, right???

Or please tell us, that you can hold the world and all the humans as a complex process and not just black and white for really wrong or right?

No, not in other words. In my own words. I think all my words speak eloquently enough about my own opinions (not feelings) on this matter, and others.

This is a forum in which we discuss our opinions. Yours are noted by the way, Goodness, you sound bitter and judgmental. But hey, maybe you're not, who knows.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, not in other words. In my own words. I think all my words speak eloquently enough about my own opinions (not feelings) on this matter, and others.

This is a forum in which we discuss our opinions. Yours are noted by the way, Goodness, you sound bitter and judgmental. But hey, maybe you're not, who knows.

So you have solved the is-ought problem and turned what we ought to do as what matters (opinion) into moral realism?

 

[Left Coast]

Did you know there's a huge war going on in Ethiopia right now? With thousands of casualties and over 2 million people displaced? I don't ever hear about it.

Are you talking about this?

Tigray war - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Blinken praises Ethiopia on Tigray peace, no return to trade programme yet

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken praised Ethiopia on Wednesday for its progress in implementing a peace deal to end the Tigray conflict, but stopped short of ushering the country back into a U.S. trade programme.

www.reuters.com

 

[Debater Slayer]

Proof of the morality actually practiced
is in the decisions that every country
makes regarding whom they support.

Forget about governments for a moment. This is about the views of individuals like you or me.

You get the meaning, but want it worded differently?
Nah.

The wording makes a major difference in how the statement could come across. As it stands, it reads like a minimization of the value of people's lives if they don't serve specific geopolitical interests.

You're making an overly specific & mischievous
claim based upon a generalization that you
apparently understand, eh.

If you find anything I said to be an inaccurate representation of your position, feel free to point that out. I notice you didn't deny what you said (about the value of people's lives) in the above post or in post #325; you merely doubled down on it.

I'll just say that geopolitics & threats to oneself are
very important. I don't know of a single country
that doesn't place its own interests above the
lives of foreigners.
You might say this is wrong, but it's impractical to
treat every human life equally. Morality is far more
complex than universal equality preached by faiths.

As I said, this is about individual opinions, not politics.

Let's set aside geopolitics for a moment. Do you believe the lives of civilians in any country are worth more or less than another? Not from a geopolitical perspective and not based on the political usefulness of providing aid in any ongoing war; just based on whether there's any inherent difference in value between different people's lives. Should that value just be measured based on usefulness to specific causes?

 

[lukethethird]

alliance.



Why? Why would countries not ally with each other to strengthen their common defense against potential enemies?

Alliance.

Alliance.

Alliance.


The Minsk agreement(s) were signed. Jesus Christ dude, this took 5 minutes on Google to look up.


Alliance.


Russia invaded Ukraine. No one made them. What are you talking about?



Ukraine is being laid to waste because Russia is bombing the **** out of them. Beginning and end of story. If Russia had not invaded, Ukraine would be not be getting laid to waste.

You are correct, Minsk I was signed, it not being implemented had me thinking it was not signed. War alliance, war pact, you say tomato...

 

[Revoltingest]

Forget about governments for a moment. This is about the views of individuals like you or me.

I personally treat people equally, with
modification based upon their behavior.

The wording makes a major difference in how the statement could come across. As it stands, it reads like a minimization of the value of people's lives if they don't serve specific geopolitical interests.



If you find anything I said to be an inaccurate representation of your position, feel free to point that out. I notice you didn't deny what you said (about the value of people's lives) in the above post or in post #325; you merely doubled down on it.



As I said, this is about individual opinions, not politics.

Let's set aside geopolitics for a moment. Do you believe the lives of civilians in any country are worth more or less than another? Not from a geopolitical perspective and not based on the political usefulness of providing aid in any ongoing war; just based on whether there's any inherent difference in value between different people's lives. Should that value just be measured based on usefulness to specific causes?

You & I continue to not communicate well together.
But I think the prior sentence answers your concerns.

 

[Father Heathen]

Ukraine joining Nato or merely threatening to, as was the case, can cause a nuclear holocaust. Ukraine is a red line and and has been for decades, that's the way it is whether we agree with it or not. What happens when you poke a bear? What happens when you threaten to cross the red line? There is no justification for what Putin has done by sending in the troops, but we can't say we didn't know this would happen.

You knew if you didn't have a hot dinner and a cold beer on the table by the time your husband got home from work that he would beat you and the kids. Why did you make him take his belt off?

 

[lukethethird]

You knew if you didn't have a hot dinner and a cold beer on the table by the time your husband got home from work that he would beat you and the kids. Why did you make him take his belt off?

So if you were the president of the USA and Russia brought missiles into Cuba and aimed them at the USA, you would be cool with that? I ask because during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis President Kennedy was not cool with that for precisely and exactly the same reason Putin is not cool with missiles coming into Ukraine to be aimed at Moscow. Cuba is a red line for the same reason Ukraine is a red line, it works both ways.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So if you were the president of the USA and Russia brought missiles into Cuba and aimed them at the USA, you would be cool with that? I ask because during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis President Kennedy was not cool with that for precisely and exactly the same reason Putin is not cool with missiles coming into Ukraine to be aimed at Moscow. Cuba is a red line for the same reason Ukraine is a red line, it works both ways.

And Putin has just announced he'll be moving nukes into Belarus this year! The government in Minsk is, ahem, slightly nuts. Sound like a good idea to you?