What is the US interest in Ukraine?

[mikkel_the_dane]

That is true to foreigners.
So it goes.

Well, it is without evidence, since it is not based on science.

 

[shunyadragon]

Still, I seriously doubt that Putin is a communist. He's certainly not a member of that party. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics is a dead entity. It will never rise again. Whatever Putin may be planning or whatever he may want, it's definitely not that. It wouldn't be called that, anyway. Maybe he'll call it Potsylvania. Or perhaps Putinsylvania.

Again, it has been addressed before the label Communist Party in Russia and China is meaningless, and they have never been based truly on the principles of Communism which are unbelievably idealistic and unattainable.

Putin's goal is definitely to reestablish the Soviet Union and he is half way there. He has paid millions of dollars in bribes graft to subvert the Hungarian political system to favor Russia, forcibly occupied some countries and stationed large numbers of Russian troops in others.

His efforts to establish greater influence and control in the Middle East is very obvious.

 

[soulsurvivor]

Liberty of Ukrainian people?

[Runs away fast]

If Russia is allowed to annex parts of Ukraine and install puppet a government in Kyiv, next Putin will invade the Baltic countries and do the same thing.

After that it will be Poland, Moldova and Georgia. The Baltics, Poland are NATO countries and US is required by treaty to intervene with troops.

So, it is best that Putin is stopped in Ukraine especially since Ukraine is willing to fight so hard and no US troops are at risk.

 

[Stevicus]

Sure you Can?!?!?! Since the beginning of the thread you have NOT presented an alternative. Still waiting . . .

Please be reasonable. You asked for an alternative just this morning, in post #109 at 7:23a MST. You did not ask for anything at the beginning of the thread. So your petulant "still waiting" is not needed nor helpful to the discussion.

World domination is to kinds physical and economic. The stated gains of China is extending State Mercantile Economic goals to the world by controlling resources as their efforts in Africa and dominating the export and technology market. There territorial goals are specifically dominating the Pacific and the economics of surrounding Asian countries.

I would prefer if we could talk about one country at a time. China and Russia are separate countries. Since this thread is about Ukraine and Russia, I will only address points related to the topic. If you want to talk about China, you're at liberty to start another thread.

Your splitting frog hairs as to what world dominion means, and ignoring the actual statements and policies of Russia and China on the ground and in economics. and not responding to the bottom line on who and how are we to bell the cat.'

"Splitting frog hairs"? How? Why not trying addressing specific points instead trying to make the discussion about me? Besides, I asked you to show me your source of information. I promise I will not ignore any "actual statements and policies of Russia" if you would ever actually bother to post anything that can be verified. I can't read your mind, so unless you deign to tell me, your vague generalities are meaningless.

Chamberlain used the same words as you have used in this thread to take the non0involvement actions he did against Hitler. Russias present course of action is exactly the same as Hitler domination of Europe.

I used the same words as Chamberlain? Where? When? Did I say "peace in our time"? No, I don't think so. In fact, I don't think we'll have peace in our time.

Now, if you really want to talk about Chamberlain and Appeasement and Munich, I guess we can talk about that, too. Do you need to be reminded of the fact that Germany and Russia are also different countries?

 

[Stevicus]

By definition, they're both about owning property.
Communism eschews private property.
Socialism has "the people" owning the means of production.
What people expect from each speaks only to origins of the
words, & how people feel about them.

Consider...
We use the word "press" in the context of freedom to
refer to all communication. But if we limited it to the
word's origin, it would mean only printed material.
Words mean what they mean, despite the fact that
some have a rich history.

So, words are fluid and sometimes their meanings and usages might change over time. I can agree with that.

Keep in mind that there's often more than one definition, even in the dictionary. With some words, there might be multiple definitions for the same word.

 

[Stevicus]

Again, it has been addressed before the label Communist Party in Russia and China is meaningless, and they have never been based truly on the principles of Communism which are unbelievably idealistic and unattainable.

Putin's goal is definitely to reestablish the Soviet Union and he is half way there. He has paid millions of dollars in bribes graft to subvert the Hungarian political system to favor Russia, forcibly occupied some countries and stationed large numbers of Russian troops in others.

His efforts to establish greater influence and control in the Middle East is very obvious.

My only point in the quoted passage was that the Soviet Union is no more, communism is no more (or it never was, as you say), so the idea that Putin is planning to reconstitute the Soviet Union just doesn't seem plausible. He is very clearly a Russian nationalist.

 

[Revoltingest]

So, words are fluid and sometimes their meanings and usages might change over time. I can agree with that.

Keep in mind that there's often more than one definition, even in the dictionary. With some words, there might be multiple definitions for the same word.

I resist change...especially when it's clearly for the worse.

 

[shunyadragon]

My only point in the quoted passage was that the Soviet Union is no more, communism is no more (or it never was, as you say), so the idea that Putin is planning to reconstitute the Soviet Union just doesn't seem plausible. He is very clearly a Russian nationalist.

Revealed: Vladimir Putin's Russia Has Plans for Eastern Europe

Putin may tip the scales.

nationalinterest.org

Revealed: Vladimir Putin's Russia Has Plans for Eastern Europe​

Putin may tip the scales.

by Dan Goure

Here's What You Need To Remember: The sad case of Moldovan politics is a cautionary tale for all of Eastern Europe. Russia will go to almost any lengths to prevent any more of the former Soviet Republics from escaping its clutches and entering the orbit of the EU.

For almost two decades, Russia has been interfering in the domestic politics of other nations. According to one report, Russia has interfered in the political processes of at least 27 North American and European countries since 2004. The Kremlin has several goals for this assault: first, to undermine the legitimacy of Western governments and principles such as the rule of law and human rights; second, to weaken major institutions such as the European Union and NATO; and third, encourage the formation of pro-Russian governments.

A wide variety of techniques and tactics are being employed, including generating false news stories about pro-democracy movements, hacking the communications of government institutions and political parties, funding pro-Moscow political movements, and using international organizations such Interpol to harass political opponents. The effects of this undeclared war are particularly pernicious in so-called semi-consolidated democracies, such as Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Moldova.
One of the Putin regime’s favorite tricks is to support pro-Russian political parties while simultaneously doing everything possible to undermine the credibility of pro-Western parties and politicians. In some instances, Russian money has gone simultaneously to both pro-Russian and extreme nationalist parties. This would seem to be a self-contradicting strategy. However, the Kremlin’s primary objective is to undermine the power of centrist parties that have dominated European politics for decades and to encourage those countries to pursue anti-Western and anti-EU policies.

 

[shunyadragon]

My only point in the quoted passage was that the Soviet Union is no more, communism is no more (or it never was, as you say), so the idea that Putin is planning to reconstitute the Soviet Union just doesn't seem plausible. He is very clearly a Russian nationalist.

Russian-occupied territories in Georgia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russian-occupied territories in Georgia (Georgian: საქართველოს ოკუპირებული ტერიტორიები, romanized: sakartvelos ok'up'irebuli t'erit'oriebi) are areas of Georgia that have been occupied by Russia after the Russo-Georgian War in 2008. They consist of the regions of Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia and the former South Ossetian Autonomous Region of Soviet Georgia (currently divided between several non-autonomous administrative divisions of independent Georgia), whose status is a matter of international dispute.

After the 2008 war and subsequent Russian military occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the Russian government, along with four other UN member states, considers the territories sovereign independent states: the Republic of Abkhazia and the Republic of South Ossetia. Before Russian occupation, the unrecognized republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia did not completely control their respectively claimed territories. Russian military bases were established in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Russia does not allow the European Union Monitoring Mission to enter either Abkhazia or South Ossetia. Russia has signed agreements with the de facto civilian administrations of both territories to integrate them militarily and economically into Russia. Russian troops have started the process of demarcation (also known as "borderisation") along, and allegedly beyond, the border between the rest of Georgia and the self-declared Republic of South Ossetia.

Both Abkhazia and South Ossetia are widely recognized as integral parts of Georgia and together represent 20% of Georgia's internationally recognized territory. The Georgian "Law on Occupied Territories of Georgia", adopted in 2008, criminalizes and prosecutes entry into Abkhazia and South Ossetia from the Russian side without special permission and allows only economic activity in the two territories that are in accordance with it. Georgia and most other members of the international community including the United States, France, China, the United Kingdom, Canada, Germany, Turkey, Japan, Israel, Australia, Italy, Brazil, Ukraine, the European Union, OSCE, and Council of Europe as well as the United Nations have recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia as occupied territories and have condemned the Russian military presence and actions there.

 

[Stevicus]

Revealed: Vladimir Putin's Russia Has Plans for Eastern Europe

Putin may tip the scales.

nationalinterest.org

Revealed: Vladimir Putin's Russia Has Plans for Eastern Europe​

Putin may tip the scales.

by Dan Goure

Here's What You Need To Remember: The sad case of Moldovan politics is a cautionary tale for all of Eastern Europe. Russia will go to almost any lengths to prevent any more of the former Soviet Republics from escaping its clutches and entering the orbit of the EU.

For almost two decades, Russia has been interfering in the domestic politics of other nations. According to one report, Russia has interfered in the political processes of at least 27 North American and European countries since 2004. The Kremlin has several goals for this assault: first, to undermine the legitimacy of Western governments and principles such as the rule of law and human rights; second, to weaken major institutions such as the European Union and NATO; and third, encourage the formation of pro-Russian governments.

A wide variety of techniques and tactics are being employed, including generating false news stories about pro-democracy movements, hacking the communications of government institutions and political parties, funding pro-Moscow political movements, and using international organizations such Interpol to harass political opponents. The effects of this undeclared war are particularly pernicious in so-called semi-consolidated democracies, such as Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Moldova.
One of the Putin regime’s favorite tricks is to support pro-Russian political parties while simultaneously doing everything possible to undermine the credibility of pro-Western parties and politicians. In some instances, Russian money has gone simultaneously to both pro-Russian and extreme nationalist parties. This would seem to be a self-contradicting strategy. However, the Kremlin’s primary objective is to undermine the power of centrist parties that have dominated European politics for decades and to encourage those countries to pursue anti-Western and anti-EU policies.

Well, the writer of this article clearly has strong opinions, and propagandists and politicians from both sides have their own bags of tricks. Keep in mind that the information that seems to emanate from this article comes from right-wing interventionists and warmongers, who have generally had a very poor track record in presenting the true state of the world to the American people.

Besides, what does any of this prove? Even if they did have designs on either Moldova or Georgia, it still doesn't prove he wants to reconstitute the USSR. Both of those territories were also under the Russian Empire, so it's possible may want to reconstitute the Russian Empire, but not the Soviet Union.

I hope we can be clear on this point.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, the writer of this article clearly has strong opinions, and propagandists and politicians from both sides have their own bags of tricks. Keep in mind that the information that seems to emanate from this article comes from right-wing interventionists and warmongers, who have generally had a very poor track record in presenting the true state of the world to the American people.

Besides, what does any of this prove? Even if they did have designs on either Moldova or Georgia, it still doesn't prove he wants to reconstitute the USSR. Both of those territories were also under the Russian Empire, so it's possible may want to reconstitute the Russian Empire, but not the Soviet Union.

I hope we can be clear on this point.

The evidence stands as cited and there will be more. Your stonewalling regardless of the evidence presented is obvious.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, the writer of this article clearly has strong opinions, and propagandists and politicians from both sides have their own bags of tricks. Keep in mind that the information that seems to emanate from this article comes from right-wing interventionists and warmongers, who have generally had a very poor track record in presenting the true state of the world to the American people.

Besides, what does any of this prove? Even if they did have designs on either Moldova or Georgia, it still doesn't prove he wants to reconstitute the USSR. Both of those territories were also under the Russian Empire, so it's possible may want to reconstitute the Russian Empire, but not the Soviet Union.

I hope we can be clear on this point.

It remains that you are ignoring Russia's pattern of aggression in Georgia, which is followed by his invasion of Ukraine refelcts Russia's paln for Eastern Europe. .I believe Putin equates the Russian Empire with the Soviet Union. The Russian Empire included all the East European countries that the Soviet Union dominated.

Do I need to cite specifically sources documenting the overwhelming war crimes of Putin in his invasion of Ukraine including giving priority to civilian targets, kidnapping untold number of Ukraine children and the mass graves of civilians found in liberated cities and towns.

Does Ukraine have the right to be a free state and join NATO?

 

[Stevicus]

The evidence stands as cited and there will be more. Your stonewalling regardless of the evidence presented is obvious.

Stonewalling of what? What "evidence"? The opinions and "analyses" of right-wing warmongers are not evidence. Try again.

 

[Stevicus]

It remains that you are ignoring Russia's pattern of aggression in Georgia, which is followed by his invasion of Ukraine refelcts Russia's paln for Eastern Europe. .I believe Putin equates the Russian Empire with the Soviet Union. The Russian Empire included all the East European countries that the Soviet Union dominated.

There was an ethnic dispute between the Georgians and the Abkhazians. Disputes like that often happen (and have happened in multiple countries across the world), and sometimes outside intervention is required, as was the case here. It is NOT evidence of any plans for world conquest. That doesn't even make any sense.

You can believe whatever you want, but if you're getting manipulated and suckered by warmongering propaganda, that's on you. You have no business getting angry with me.

Do I need to cite specifically sources documenting the overwhelming war crimes of Putin in his invasion of Ukraine including giving priority to civilian targets, kidnapping untold number of Ukraine children and the mass graves of civilians found in liberated cities and towns.

No, you don't need to cite any sources on that, as we haven't really discussed that. War crimes are terrible atrocities, and those who commit them should be arrested and tried. However, even that, in and of itself, is not evidence of a plan for world conquest. It's only evidence that war is hell, which I believe most of us already knew. That's what makes war a thing that should be avoided, not encouraged or rushed into recklessly. Too many Americans look at war like it's a football game, and such cavalier, arrogant attitudes can be off-putting.

Does Ukraine have the right to be a free state and join NATO?

Well, they certainly have the right to be a free state. Whether they're allowed to join NATO is up to NATO, and it would require unanimous approval from all NATO members. As a citizen of a NATO member state, I would ask how we, as NATO, would benefit from the inclusion of Ukraine into that organization. Does that enhance our national security aspirations? Is it something that would bring about greater peace and stability in the world? Is Ukraine a responsible member of the world community? Can we be assured that there's no corruption in their government and that there was no mischief or intrigue behind the coup which put them in power in 2014?

We've already had a US president impeached over Ukrainian intrigue, as well as the son of a sitting president also under suspicion about his dealings with that government. Is Ukraine even a free country? Not according to Freedom House (Countries and Territories).

 

[Revoltingest]

You can believe whatever you want, but if you're getting manipulated and suckered by warmongering propaganda, that's on you. You have no business getting angry with me.

Says one who defended the USSR's system in several
discussions about socialism v capitalism. I sense
partiality towards the old motherland, & charity
towards Putin's ambitions.

USSR was evil, & Putin is a very very bad man.

 

[shunyadragon]

Stonewalling of what? What "evidence"? The opinions and "analyses" of right-wing warmongers are not evidence. Try again.

Providing an alternative to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. You admited everyone has a right to a free state. What is your alternative to a NATO response to the invasion?

 

[shunyadragon]

There was an ethnic dispute between the Georgians and the Abkhazians. Disputes like that often happen (and have happened in multiple countries across the world), and sometimes outside intervention is required, as was the case here. It is NOT evidence of any plans for world conquest. That doesn't even make any sense.

You can believe whatever you want, but if you're getting manipulated and suckered by warmongering propaganda, that's on you. You have no business getting angry with me.



No, you don't need to cite any sources on that, as we haven't really discussed that. War crimes are terrible atrocities, and those who commit them should be arrested and tried. However, even that, in and of itself, is not evidence of a plan for world conquest. It's only evidence that war is hell, which I believe most of us already knew. That's what makes war a thing that should be avoided, not encouraged or rushed into recklessly. Too many Americans look at war like it's a football game, and such cavalier, arrogant attitudes can be off-putting.



Well, they certainly have the right to be a free state. Whether they're allowed to join NATO is up to NATO, and it would require unanimous approval from all NATO members. As a citizen of a NATO member state, I would ask how we, as NATO, would benefit from the inclusion of Ukraine into that organization. Does that enhance our national security aspirations? Is it something that would bring about greater peace and stability in the world? Is Ukraine a responsible member of the world community? Can we be assured that there's no corruption in their government and that there was no mischief or intrigue behind the coup which put them in power in 2014?

We've already had a US president impeached over Ukrainian intrigue, as well as the son of a sitting president also under suspicion about his dealings with that government. Is Ukraine even a free country? Not according to Freedom House (Countries and Territories).

Trump impeached over 'trying; to bribe Ukraine is not remotely an issue here.. Trump is likely guilty of many impeachable offences.

True NATO decides, but the main issue is whether Ukraine has the right to be a free state.

As far as war crimes are concerned you are neglecting the extreme extent of Russian war crimes in Ukraine as documented. True all wars have war crimes, but Russia's war crimes are extreme beyond most wars in history. Your dismisal of Russia's war crimes appears equivalent to the violence of a football game.

 

[Stevicus]

Providing an alternative to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. You admited everyone has a right to a free state. What is your alternative to a NATO response to the invasion?

Yes, they do have a right to a free state. As it so happens, they have a border dispute with another free state. Things like this can and do happen when in the course of human events. This is nothing new to the human experience, and oftentimes, such things can lead to war. At some point, when one or both sides gets weary from it, the usual course of action has been to sit down and try to discuss their differences and work out some sort of treaty or agreement. Oftentimes, both sides won't always get everything they want.

It may not be the ideal solution, but it's generally how the world has worked for centuries. I don't like it much either, and frankly, if it was up to me, all humans would be living in peace in a stateless one-world society guided by love and freedom. But, unfortunately, this is the kind of crap that we're stuck with.

And because of this, I still have to remember where I live. I live in America, not in Ukraine or in Russia. America is a NATO partner and has obligations to its NATO allies. This means that in the event any NATO power is attacked, my country has an obligation to respond. As an American, I have a patriotic obligation (though not a legal requirement) to support my country if it goes to war (but only if it's an officially declared war).

It's on that basis that it might be necessary to examine some practical issues, pertaining to what kind of response NATO should make regarding this invasion of Ukraine. On a personal level, I have friends and family in the US military, and while I know that the military is necessary, I would hope that people would not get to cavalier or casual in calling for military action unless absolutely necessary.

You do realize that the possibility of a direct military conflict with both China and Russia is on the table here, don't you? This is a world war we're talking about. Since you mentioned Chamberlain earlier, one possible factor motivating the Munich Agreement was that Britain was not really fully prepared for all-out war and needed to buy time. Sometimes, recklessly or impulsively diving into war may not advisable, despite how angry one might be. Cool-headed, strategic thinking might be required in such situations. Besides, if I was going to be compared to a WW2 era leader, it would be FDR. He didn't go to war right away either, and he wasn't even at Munich.

 

[Stevicus]

Trump impeached over 'trying; to bribe Ukraine is not remotely an issue here.. Trump is likely guilty of many impeachable offences.

True NATO decides, but the main issue is whether Ukraine has the right to be a free state.

As far as war crimes are concerned you are neglecting the extreme extent of Russian war crimes in Ukraine as documented. True all wars have war crimes, but Russia's war crimes are extreme beyond most wars in history. Your dismisal of Russia's war crimes appears equivalent to the violence of a football game.

Dismissal? What dismissal? I haven't denied or dismissed anything, and I said above that any war criminals should be arrested and prosecuted, if possible. I've seen the reports, and if any of it is true and can be proven, then, yes, they should be made to pay for their crimes. But my only point was that this, in and of itself, is not evidence of a plan for world conquest.

 

[Stevicus]

Says one who defended the USSR's system in several
discussions about socialism v capitalism. I sense
partiality towards the old motherland, & charity
towards Putin's ambitions.

USSR was evil, & Putin is a very very bad man.

Nope, just an objective bystander, a student of history, and a US citizen who does not live in either Ukraine or Russia. I've visited both countries, but that was back when they were both part of the same country. Frankly, I'm actually quite saddened by these events. And yes, there are many things about Russia and the USSR that I liked and still like, but there were many things I didn't like (and I don't like Putin, as many Russians don't like him either).

Just like there are things about America I like and things I don't like. I guess that just makes us both normal countries with normal people, huh? Some are good, some are bad.

But sure, go ahead and condemn entire nations and nationalities. That seems to be the in thing these days, so who am I to question it?