What is wrong (or right) with inter-racial and inter-religious marriages?

[sayak83]

That's fine and I'm not saying all. Yes, there are all kinds of people everywhere but I don't always deal with "all kinds" growing up here and working here in the inner city most of the times I deal with one specific kind. A lot of these business owners here in Compton area often treat me a professional clinician, with the same contempt as if I'm some pan handler or crack addict. I'm well aware of the pre-conceived notions many Indians have of Americans and of specific ethnic cultures (and religions) of people here.

Unfortunately my mindset and demeanor at times are shaped by being discfriminated agaionst because of these pre-conceived notions, and I'm sure my Muslim friends from Arabic speaking countries may have the same issues. The problem I see sometimes is that the moderateprogressives among the Hindu faith of Indian ethnic background sometimes remain silent. But so long as we have this "what-about-ism" or "everyone else does it" mentality focus on in-group problems our issues continue to be cyclical.

What is an inner city by the way?
The point of Hinduism is to rise above one's instinctual and socially learned notions, biases and prejudices. As long as one is limited by them, one is bound to the wheel of rebirth, creating new suffering for oneself and the others. What is the point of revering figures like Gandhi, Mandela or King if one chooses not to make such an effort?

Hinduism also believes that change comes from within and not from without. Thus Hinduism seeks to encourage people to be better by trying to remind them of their inherent good nature, rather than punishing or criticizing them for their ethical and moral failings. Basically through love and forgiveness, as much as possible (clearly one still has a duty to prevent actions that cause hurt and violence to others). For the Hindu rishi-s who wrote our scriptures, the unenlightened people are like little children who are yet to mature into full adults. Teaching them through love and positive examples and stories rather than haranguing them for every mistake or mischief, was considered to be the best way. This I believe as well.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Intrusion is not their right.QUOTE]

Me thinks your idea of intrusion and mine may be different. when I think of intrusion I'm thinking of people being disrespectful and being all up in your face when they're not invited. My point in regards to your previous comment was that people need to learn to live next to each other. What that means is, if you own a business or a house meeting people in a confined space like a small city is something one must get used to.

If they do, then they should not wonder why they are disrespected.

If someone invades another's sp[ace without being invited it does warrant a diplomatic form of correction, but this different than having a bad attitude as a business owner like the examples I provided earlier.

You should just be a professional clinician. Don't try to be more than that when the other party does not desire it, and then, I hope, you will be respected.

I think we are lost in translation. In my earlier responses were geared towards business owners and their mannerisms if I'm conducting business. I, as a customer should not be subjected to bad manners because I'm of a particular demographic especially if I'm cordial and respectful. I never overstep my boundaries but my earlier example was alluding to the behavior some exhibit.

You go to a shop, like something, ask for the price and buy it if the price suits you. That should be the end of it.QUOTE]

As it should. But also manners and how one conduct themselves means there is a diffeence of me returning my business and not returning my business. As I mentioned earlier some Indians come to the United States with cultural pre-conceived notions. With that being said, it may make sense why I may experience the attitudes I experience. Just as many Arab-Americans experience what they experience when they conducted public prayers post 9/11.

You mean only Indians can open a shop in inner Compton?

No. But there are a lot of migrants from Vietnam, China, Cambodia, and India that strategically set up shop in the inner cities because African-Americans are the largest consumers among minority demographics. Nail shops, motels, convience stores/motels are typically ran by either Indian migrants, nail shops by chinese and/or Vietnamese/Cambodians so in Los Angeles County we all occasionally interact with each other.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

What is an inner city by the way?

When I refer to the inner city, I'm referring to the center of a particular city for example Compton, which has the designation of having social and economic problems. so when someone refers to the "hood," they are also talking about the inner city.

The point of Hinduism is to rise above one's instinctual and socially learned notions, biases and prejudices.

I would like to think that is the axiom of most world religions. I believe the premise of all world religions is for one to progress physically and spiritually. Progression of the self to me is the foundation of all world religions because without progression one cannot attain a higher understanding. But, I also think and you can possibly attest to this, ethnic culture tends to "trump" some of the progressive religious principles of some of these faiths.

What is the point of revering figures like Gandhi, Mandela or King if one chooses not to make such an effort?

I agree. This is the point I was alluding to when I made the reference of one worshipping a benevolent deity and if said deity exclaims a law of benevolence towards others, how can one being cognizant of that, reconcile that with having personal bigoted views? This goes back to my earlier view which I made in another thread concerning Muslims. I think a lot of times people are religious by culture, and not by spirituality. So although people may be of a particular religious faith, they may hold views that are in oposition to said faith because these are internalized cultural values they tend to maintain.

Hinduism also believes that change comes from within and not from without. Thus Hinduism seeks to encourage people to be better by trying to remind them of their inherent good nature, rather than punishing or criticizing them for their ethical and moral failings.

I believe you, and I believe Hinduism may say this, but saying and doing are two different things and unfortunately human beings do not always exemplify religious/spiritual teachings. In the Qur'an God says "there is no compulsion in religion" but often times extremism tends to manipulate those sayings which provokes the compelling of individuals to convert to Islam. In Islam, humankind we are a human family and the only thing that ought to distinguish us is piety, yet there is racism in the Muslim world, again, irrational cultural values tend to circumvent those spiritual teachings.

Basically through love and forgiveness, as much as possible (clearly one still has a duty to prevent actions that cause hurt and violence to others). For the Hindu rishi-s who wrote our scriptures, the unenlightened people are like little children who are yet to mature into full adults. Teaching them through love and positive examples and stories rather than haranguing them for every mistake or mischief, was considered to be the best way. This I believe as well.

The red is compelling. if all of us lived by that I think our species would definitely be on its way to reach its full potential. In star trek next generation the "Q" which are sentient beings which have god-like powers, feared humanity (towards the end of the Star Trek series) would out do the Q because humanity had the potential to move beyond the limits of their own mind. I pray we can meet the basic requirements of these principles.

 

[sayak83]

When I refer to the inner city, I'm referring to the center of a particular city for example Compton, which has the designation of having social and economic problems. so when someone refers to the "hood," they are also talking about the inner city.



I would like to think that is the axiom of most world religions. I believe the premise of all world religions is for one to progress physically and spiritually. Progression of the self to me is the foundation of all world religions because without progression one cannot attain a higher understanding. But, I also think and you can possibly attest to this, ethnic culture tends to "trump" some of the progressive religious principles of some of these faiths.



I agree. This is the point I was alluding to when I made the reference of one worshipping a benevolent deity and if said deity exclaims a law of benevolence towards others, how can one being cognizant of that, reconcile that with having personal bigoted views? This goes back to my earlier view which I made in another thread concerning Muslims. I think a lot of times people are religious by culture, and not by spirituality. So although people may be of a particular religious faith, they may hold views that are in oposition to said faith because these are internalized cultural values they tend to maintain.



I believe you, and I believe Hinduism may say this, but saying and doing are two different things and unfortunately human beings do not always exemplify religious/spiritual teachings. In the Qur'an God says "there is no compulsion in religion" but often times extremism tends to manipulate those sayings which provokes the compelling of individuals to convert to Islam. In Islam, humankind we are a human family and the only thing that ought to distinguish us is piety, yet there is racism in the Muslim world, again, irrational cultural values tend to circumvent those spiritual teachings.



The red is compelling. if all of us lived by that I think our species would definitely be on its way to reach its full potential. In star trek next generation the "Q" which are sentient beings which have god-like powers, feared humanity (towards the end of the Star Trek series) would out do the Q because humanity had the potential to move beyond the limits of their own mind. I pray we can meet the basic requirements of these principles.

I think we have reached an agreement. One last thing. On the interfaith marriage issue, a complication in Islam is that the Quran is strongly against it. This seems to be a problem created by the scripture itself and not the people who follow it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I was not satisfied with the shop-keeper's behavior, I would simply not visit the shop ever again and buy things from somewhere else. I also wonder why a shop-keeper would be not be courteous towards a customer unless the customer has also done something to rankle the shop-keeper.

Well, I am quite conversant with Quran (can hold my own vis-a-vis Muslims) and have interacted with Muslims, who form a sizable percentage of Indian population, all through my life. No problem with them individually, I have had many nice Muslim friends. But when they collectively try to throw their weight against Hinduism and Hindu interests, then I too will act accordingly. As for inter-religious marriages, it is an absolute "NO".

 

[Kirran]

I am in an interreligious and interracial relationship myself, come to think of it! Not international though

 

[Aupmanyav]

Wish you all the best, Kirran.
One of my internet friends, a French Hindu, did not fair that well with his Hindu wife. They had a son. Nice people and I am sorry for them. She was from Uttarkhand.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

If I was not satisfied with the shop-keeper's behavior, I would simply not visit the shop ever again and buy things from somewhere else.

I don't think you understood. This isn't a manner of not shopping one or two places this is about a community of migrants who come here with pre-conceived ideas that one demographic is this way, another is that way and so generally their attitude will be generated based on those positive and negative stereotypes.

For example some Indian migrants know African-American women like beauty and fashion, and they know they'll pay, so they set up beauty supply stores in the inner city. The same can be said about liquor stores and motels. On Long Beach Boulevard now there is a row of motels we here call "moe moes" specific geared towards people who indulge in prostitution (they will give you the option to be charged by the hour). If you come here with a negative opinion about one group and if you live and/or work among that group and their behavior is like the per-ceived stereotype, you'll have a confirmation bias that all are like that so any member of that demographic group you encounter you tend to treat them based on those pre-conveived notions. This isn't about a few stores but about a community that have a particular attitude about a particular group or groups of people.

Well, I am quite conversant with Quran (can hold my own vis-a-vis Muslims) and have interacted with Muslims, who form a sizable percentage of Indian population, all through my life. No problem with them individually, I have had many nice Muslim friends. But when they collectively try to throw their weight against Hinduism and Hindu interests, then I too will act accordingly. As for inter-religious marriages, it is an absolute "NO".

That's fine we all have our beliefs. Like I said before, there are plenty Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, who place their ethnic heritage before their religion. Our progression as a species will begin when humanity blur these lines where religion, and ethnicity are unimportant when it comes to intimacy and love.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I think we have reached an agreement. One last thing. On the interfaith marriage issue, a complication in Islam is that the Quran is strongly against it. This seems to be a problem created by the scripture itself and not the people who follow it.

Muslims marry contextually inter and intra-religiously. Even among Muslims, there are those that marry based on ethnic heritage and some, from my interactions with them, make it a cultural rule to do so. some who have developed a more secular and progressive attitude tend to not make that an issue.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That's fine we all have our beliefs. Like I said before, there are plenty Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, who place their ethnic heritage before their religion. Our progression as a species will begin when humanity blur these lines where religion, and ethnicity are unimportant when it comes to intimacy and love.

They generally do not blur here and it is not necessary that they should blur. Is it necessary in USA that a Hindu should marry a white or a colored person? We can have good relationships even without intimacy (you mean sex?) and marriage. I fail to understand why you are making an issue out of it? Is that your problem that the shop-girl refuses to get into a sexual relationship with you? I sympathize with her.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Is it necessary in USA that a Hindu should marry a white or a colored person?

Not necessary but more often than not, the reasons why are illogical and based on irrational notions of fear mixed in with ignorance.

We can have good relationships even without intimacy (you mean sex?) and marriage.

Apparently my examples were lost to you.


How do I say this......

If I cannot marry an Indian woman because of a pre-conceived idea that "all black people are lazy and ignorant" it renders THAT reason illogical because there is no universal fact. If she is incapable of having a relationsip with me beyond cordiality because of trivial reasons it renders those reasons illogical. If her faith says all humanity is one yet treats me like an other it renders her belief system cultural as opposed to spiritual.

I fail to understand why you are making an issue out of it?

No. I think this is a case of a language barrier and comprehending key points I'm making here.

Is that your problem that the shop-girl refuses to get into a sexual relationship with you? I sympathize with her.

I'm confused..

 

[Aupmanyav]

If I cannot marry an Indian woman because of a pre-conceived idea that "all black people are lazy and ignorant" it renders THAT reason illogical because there is no universal fact. If she is incapable of having a relationsip with me beyond cordiality because of trivial reasons it renders those reasons illogical. If her faith says all humanity is one yet treats me like an other it renders her belief system cultural as opposed to spiritual.

Sure, all black people are neither lazy nor ignorant, otherwise we would not have had Obama as the president of USA for two terms. Even scientifically that is an absurdity. But you are against a person's cultural system and that does not fall within your right. We, more often than not, think that it is important. It does not make a person less spiritual. That is how people have lived together in India in peace and have prospered for thousands of years. Jews (might have come here 2,500 years ago, they say during King Solomon's reign), Christians (came here soon after Jesus), Muslims (soon after Mohammad's passing away), Zoroastrians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and many more religious views about whom you would not have heard. India never asked anyone to forget their culture.

 

[Kirran]

One reason why this becomes an issue is that there can be different expectations within a family. When a young person wants to be with someone from a background (religion, ethnicity, caste, social group) which their parents find unacceptable, that causes far more strife than would be there if there was not that prejudice. Similar to what many same-sex-attracted young people experience.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Sure, all black people are neither lazy nor ignorant, otherwise we would not have had Obama as the president of USA for two terms. Even scientifically that is an absurdity.

Lol Obama is not even a standard to use to contradict such a stereotype but I guess that’ll do.”

But you are against a person's cultural system and that does not fall within your right.

I am in disagreement but I don’t dictate what people should do I just think people that believe this way are backwards. This is my opinion just I’m sure you think parts if not all Islam is backwards.

That is how people have lived together in India in peace and have prospered for thousands of years. Jews (might have come here 2,500 years ago, they say during King Solomon's reign), Christians (came here soon after Jesus), Muslims (soon after Mohammad's passing away), Zoroastrians, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and many more religious views about whom you would not have heard. India never asked anyone to forget their culture.

I understand that and I’m not saying cultures need to change but I do not think marrying inter-religiously or inter-racially it will change that. This is a misnomer that many religionists have mistaken.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

One reason why this becomes an issue is that there can be different expectations within a family. When a young person wants to be with someone from a background (religion, ethnicity, caste, social group) which their parents find unacceptable, that causes far more strife than would be there if there was not that prejudice. Similar to what many same-sex-attracted young people experience.

So grown young adults let their parents dictate their partners for them?

 

[LuisDantas]

Muslims marry contextually inter and intra-religiously. Even among Muslims, there are those that marry based on ethnic heritage and some, from my interactions with them, make it a cultural rule to do so. some who have developed a more secular and progressive attitude tend to not make that an issue.

And yet the Quranic prohibition is rather clear, isn't it?

 

[Sakeenah]

And yet the Quranic prohibition is rather clear, isn't it?

I have to agree with LuisDantas here. Eventhough there are Muslims that marry outside the faith, the Quranic prohibitions are clear. I don't think there's an issue with interracial marriages, but interreligious marriages can be quite complicated for us Muslims.
As a practicing Muslim I could never ask someone else to compromise that much for me in a marriage.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

And yet the Quranic prohibition is rather clear, isn't it?

I’m not denying that

 

[sayak83]

Muslims marry contextually inter and intra-religiously. Even among Muslims, there are those that marry based on ethnic heritage and some, from my interactions with them, make it a cultural rule to do so. some who have developed a more secular and progressive attitude tend to not make that an issue.

But do you recognize that the Quran is retrograde in this respect? That Muslims who live in interfaith marriage are being more progressive than the Quran?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

But do you recognize that the Quran is retrograde in this respect? That Muslims who live in interfaith marriage are being more progressive than the Quran?

Well I think the Qur’an and it’s revelation relates to the events at that time.