Ah, I get it. Thanks for clarifying.
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What is wrong with raiding the caravans?
- Thread starter sovietchild
- Start date
Ah, I get it. Thanks for clarifying.
Akivah
Well-Known Member
That's a direct copy from the Talmud.
"Who is strong? One who overpowers his inclinations."
sovietchild
Well-Known Member
Maybe. His mother was a Jew. Plus, he was a merchant.
He probably learnt a lot about Christian and Jewish traditions from his travels, as well as from his childhood environment.
Shad
Veteran Member
To be fair to our Saudi friends, the king just implemented beefed-up policy to provide even more free room and board for atheists. Although he commonly spells 'atheist' as 'terrorist'.
EmperorSwordMan
A Fantasy turned Real
What's wrong with attacking Syrian refugee trucks and boats? Why would you allow outsiders from lands filled with barbarism and civil war who would do nothing but suck up welfare, constantly commit acts of terrorism for his religion which wants you dead, and go on mass rape gangs around your nation and get away with it, to enter your home? Raid those pedo freaks, kill'em off.
Wasn't my last reply enough for you last time? Anyway this is equal to your statement. You are either a ignorant barbaric Muslim who thinks everyone who doesn't think like him are better off dead, or a troll.
Wasn't my last reply enough for you last time? Anyway this is equal to your statement. You are either a ignorant barbaric Muslim who thinks everyone who doesn't think like him are better off dead, or a troll.
One of the issues I have with ancient texts is that they are unalterable, and therefore can't account for how the world has changed. It's an accusation I would pass at any sort of literalist Quranic or Biblical interpretation.
Equally, when we look back at historical acts, failing to take into account the norms of the time seems ridiculously short-sighted. It would have us write off George Washington as a slave owner, for example.
Yeah...so this is your argument for rational discussion?
Both sides can ask the same question: "What is wrong with beating, robbing and murdering those who constantly raid your caravans and beat, rob and murder you?" It's and endless cycle of murder and robbery. How is that a proper social model?
Do two wrongs make a right?
Did the raiders ascertain the guilt of the caravaners before raiding them, or were they just out for loot?
This the morality of a predatory animal.
These were primitive, tribal Bedouins and villagers. There's was a tribal morality, which did not fully extend to those outside their tribe. In a modern, cosmopolitan society a working morality has to be generalized to extend to the whole society.
Return good for evil? Do unto others as I'd have them do unto me? Not live by robbery and pillage?
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His actions are those of an ordinary, flawed human being who must resort to using the same dirty tactics as those we consider morally corrupt. So Muhammad puts himself on the same level. This is a problem if he is supposed to be a divine representative; a moral example to others.
You will find that most people who are not Muslim have grown up in religions where their God or prophet represents qualities such as humility, kindness, patience, love etc. Not violence. Not vengeance. Not immoral behaviour. Did Jesus raid or kill? No. He was willing to suffer rather than act immorally. Though Christianity is very different to eastern religions, even Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism preach similar principles of morality and so when we discover the behaviour shown by Muhammad, it is difficult to view him as a righteous, moral character.
I hope that makes sense.
Yep...All 1.6 billion of them. Good call. Very insightful.
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Robert Vincelette
Member
If there can be no other judgment against murder and genocide, that is, everything is relative to the opinions of the times, that justifies what the Nazis did, what ISIS does, it makes all genocides against innocent people acceptable and if there is nothing wrong with that, under such nihilism of cultural relativism, the Ten Commandments are invalid. If everything is permitted as is the case where genocide is permitted and excused because it is in fashion during history, than in the absence of rules, of right and wrong, there are no rules to stop us from judging crimes against the innocent. Either there is a such thing as right or wrong or there isn't. We ll have to mke the decision of what we believe in life.
Shad
Veteran Member
You realize by accepting this that that does also means that the good moral character assessments of Muhammad also become moot. You can not merely use such an idea to dismiss what people think are the moral flaws while maintain a good moral character of Muhammad, that is a double-standard.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
How is that an example of honesty?
So why do you think you should steal from others? How is hurting others a sign of self control?
I had a patient a couple of nights ago grab my lanyard around my neck and try to choke me (fortunately, he was pulling the wrong way so my airway was in no danger). I was LIVID. Did I hurt him back? No. I desired my license, job, and freedom more than punishing some head case.
Are you arguing there is no Muslim merchandise?
Are you arguing there are no Muslim tourist traps?
From this site:
That's a lot of dough.
Running around a stone block doesn't do anything either, yet I doubt anyone's going to stop THAT money-maker.
As I noted in the other thread, laws have codified in that area since at least Hammurabi. You don't get to argue that lawless and indiscriminate violence is the civilized way of doing things.
It's like when Team Jesus goes around like they're on a pokemon journey, but instead of capturing weird animals and plants, they're insulting everyone, vandalizing property that doesn't belong to them, and causing such a ruckus that the current government will most likely want to raze the entire section of the globe to the ground. Yeah, I can understand why he'd take some heat for that...
Jesus was fine with chasing people with a bullwhip, though.
I guess the swineherd who got his entire herd chased off a cliff, listening in agony and revulsion as some wandering preacher forces the pigs to squeal and then splatter everywhere, didn't think Jesus was a sociopath? Not only did he just lose his livelihood, but the smell would be atrocious for months ...
Jesus doesn't mind killing livestock or trees (the fig tree) that don't belong to him. He and Muhammad might just get along after all....
Matthew 6:25-34New International Version (NIV)
Do Not Worry
25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?
That he made himself. What a dude.
Shrew
Active Member
It's robbery, that's wrong with it.
And even if those people should have beaten, robbed and murdered followers of Mohammed - two wrongs don't make a right.
sovietchild
Well-Known Member
Do you think they were out just to loot? No, they went and took back what was theirs.
Remember, Arabia is nothing but deserts and waste barren land well-nigh waterless and treeless.
How is it robbery when you take back what was taken from you?
If they knew who robbed them, wouldn't they'd have confronted the culprits long before they packed the goods onto camels for transport?
How did they know which caravan had their property, and did they do nothing in the raid but retrieve their stolen property?
No. These were pastoralists who lived off their herds or traders who sold goods. If they saw an opportunity to supplement their income by pillage they went for it. Theft was, for some, a way of life.
If your morality is tribal; if right and wrong are only meaningful within your own little group, I suppose this could be seen as OK. But this seems a very retarded, primitive morality. I thought Muhammad's message was anti-tribal; that all were brothers in a universal Ummah, and shared a common morality.
sovietchild
Well-Known Member
The caravan which got raided belonged to Mecca's authorities. The property which got raided was probably the same worth.