What is your opinion on the pope’s declaration on Islam?

[.lava]

Are you aware that the controversial statements the Pope made at Regensburg regarding Islam were not assertions that he himself was making? He was a citing a discussion from a medieval dialogue as a platform to proceed to the question of faith and reason. Islam was not at all the subject of the discussion and he did not himself endorse the statements of the historical figure reportedly to have said "Islam has brought only violence and the sword".

Full Text of the Pope's Speech The Mistinerpretation of Which Has Sparked Muslim Violence

Though if it is true that this speech sparked violence, that would not be without irony.

dear, Pope is not an ordinary man. he does not start speaking out of blue. his speech is written, decided. so he chosed to say those words. why would he chose to say those stuff? because he is so child like, i think not. he is not stupid or blind. see? now you say there is irony. i guess it is Pope who makes you say that.

btw for irony thingy; thanks for waking me up from my sweet dream of simple disagreement. i should have known better. but i like sweet.

.

 

[kai]

Are you aware that the controversial statements the Pope made at Regensburg regarding Islam were not assertions that he himself was making? He was a citing a discussion from a medieval dialogue as a platform to proceed to the question of faith and reason. Islam was not at all the subject of the discussion and he did not himself endorse the statements of the historical figure reportedly to have said "Islam has brought only violence and the sword".

Full Text of the Pope's Speech The Mistinerpretation of Which Has Sparked Muslim Violence

Though if it is true that this speech sparked violence, that would not be without irony.

the speech went right over the heads of ordinary people in the street, i am sure it was meant for academics, who else would get it.

 

[Smoke]

I would think it was wonderful if he came to talk of peace... The pope didn't sit on anyones altar, he didn't take off his shoes! And if a Muslim came into a Cathedral and sat on a knee rest we use when we kneel to the east, then I really wouldn't be insulted... :sorry1:

You're missing the point -- which is, of course, that the Pope's behavior was offensive. So you should imagine not how you'd feel if our imaginary Muslim leader did something inoffensive, but how you'd feel if he did something offensive, something you considered deeply disrespectful toward both your faith and its members.

 

[YmirGF]

the speech went right over the heads of ordinary people in the street, i am sure it was meant for academics, who else would get it.

Exactly. It took me about two hours to read the piece way back when and it is an effort to follow what he was saying. The text is most definitely not written for the layman and requires extensive knowledge of religion, philosophy, theological concepts and history. I think the average mortal would just glaze over after the first couple of paragraphs.

 

[YmirGF]

You're missing the point -- which is, of course, that the Pope's behavior was offensive. So you should imagine not how you'd feel if our imaginary Muslim leader did something inoffensive, but how you'd feel if he did something offensive, something you considered deeply disrespectful toward both your faith and its members.

Is this not important?

On May 9, he visited the new Al-Hussein bin-Talal Mosque, also in Amman.

The Pope surprisingly entered the mosque wearing his shoes, but so too did Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, a Hashemite prince and descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, who escorted him.

To pre-empt possible misunderstandings, Vatican spokesperson Father Federico Lombardi hastened to explain afterward that the Pope “was ready to take off his shoes out of respect for the holy place, but his host did not request him to do this.”

Shouldn't Muslims be outraged by Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal's "behavior" as well?

 

[smitten508]

my English sort of failed reading your post. i did not understand if you believe Pope is sincere or not.

.

Yes, I believe the Pope was sincere when he stated that Christians and Islamics should promote unity and peace... With the history of conversion techniques among us Catholics, I would imagine that you would relish what he says and be thankful that its not the time of the Crusades.lol

 

[kai]

Yes, I believe the Pope was sincere when he stated that Christians and Islamics should promote unity and peace... With the history of conversion techniques among us Catholics, I would imagine that you would relish what he says and

be thankful that its not the time of the Crusades

.lol

i am afraid among Muslims that is a matter of debate

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

the speech went right over the heads of ordinary people in the street, i am sure it was meant for academics, who else would get it.

The Regensburg address was to academics- it was given at the university. Lava, if you read the speech he was reminiscing over a reading of a thirteenth century text that amounted to a discussion about the relationship between faith, reason and violence. Clearly the author of the text himself thought that Islam was a violent and irrational faith, and Benedict notes here a theological school in Islam which posits a God beyond reason. But Benedict has been critical of faith without reason both as a Christian trend and as a universal religious phenomenon, seeing irrational faith and cold, inhuman rationalism as two distinctive and related characteristics of the problem posed to human civilization and culture by modernity.

He is not endorsing the author's evaluation of Islam, nor really talking about Islam at all, but discussing the imlplications of the separation of reason and faith.

 

[Smoke]

Shouldn't Muslims be outraged by Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal's "behavior" as well?

No one is as offended by the misbehavior of his friends as he is by the misbehavior of his enemies, and most Muslims -- not without reason -- consider the Pope hostile toward Islam. As a purely practical matter, if he really wants to reach out to Muslims he should be especially careful to be respectful, especially since Vatican "outreach" rarely amounts to anything but an attempt to dominate, and Muslims are particularly aware of that fact.

If you mean that Muslims, especially in the Middle East, tend to be overly sensitive and too easily offended, then of course I agree. But the Pope could reasonably be expected to know that, and to take great care not to offend.

It's all the same to me. Frankly, I'd rather not see an alliance between the two most aggressive religious groups in the world.

 

[YmirGF]

It's all the same to me. Frankly, I'd rather not see an alliance between the two most aggressive religious groups in the world.

I doubt you will see such a thing any time soon.

 

[Smoke]

I doubt you will see such a thing any time soon.

So do I.

 

[kai]

No one is as offended by the misbehavior of his friends as he is by the misbehavior of his enemies, and most Muslims -- not without reason -- consider the Pope hostile toward Islam. As a purely practical matter, if he really wants to reach out to Muslims he should be especially careful to be respectful, especially since Vatican "outreach" rarely amounts to anything but an attempt to dominate, and Muslims are particularly aware of that fact.

If you mean that Muslims, especially in the Middle East, tend to be overly sensitive and too easily offended, then of course I agree. But the Pope could reasonably be expected to know that, and to take great care not to offend.

It's all the same to me.

Frankly, I'd rather not see an alliance between the two most aggressive religious groups in the world

.

If they are honest with each other there is little likelihood of that, Its a debatable point whether they have much in common, they would have to set their beliefs aside in order to accommodate each other ,i doubt thats possible for catholics and i am pretty sure its impossible for Muslims.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

Well, we all know how much Benedict loves his Italian shoes

Not Prada, btw, but a papal tradition.

 

[kai]

Lombardi also said the pope didn’t take off his shoes before entering the mosque because his hosts had arranged strips of carpet to walk along.
“We were all ready to take off our shoes,” Lombardi said. “But the people who welcomed us didn’t ask us to do it … It would be absolutely wrong to make a problem out of it.”
Benedict XVI sets new papal record for mosque visits | National Catholic Reporter



so what is it the Mosque? or the floor? thats so holy you cant wear your shoes on it? or in it?

 

[Smoke]

Not Prada, btw

I found it very amusing when the Vatican released a statement saying that the Pope is not concerned with frivolity and does not wear Prada, as if his bespoke Italian footwear was somehow less frivolous than designer shoes. JP2, in his off-the-rack Polish shoes -- that was a Pope who didn't care about such frippery. Benedict seems to want to dress as like Julius II as possible.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

The Observatore released the statement in response to wide-spread speculation that the Pope was wearing prada shoes.

What he did was revive a Papal tradition. Of course you are free to read it negatively, but I think, in a small way, it is part of the larger picture that Benedict has in mind- the rescuing of a viable and durable Catholic identity. I am not sure if you understand the spiritual damage that has been wrought by some approaches to the meaning of the Second Vatican Council as it pertains to Catholic identity. A Church, marked above all by tradition, overnight suddenly appeared to abandon it. The question becomes what are we? What do we really have?

The pendulum has swing in both directions, if we are fortunate a middle way will begin to open up now. Benedict has begun the process of a Catholicism that is bold enough to enter into the modern discussion, not simply ignore it, but at the same time not afraid to stand firm by its rich heritage- cultural and spiritual. His return to the wardrobe of past Popes is a signifier of his hermeneutic of continuity that, as he says, the whole doctrinal history of the Church is contained also in Vatican II and that we can not reap the benefit of the tree while severing its roots.

 

[Smoke]

What he did was revive a Papal tradition. Of course you are free to read it negatively, but I think, in a small way, it is part of the larger picture that Benedict has in mind- the rescuing of a viable and durable Catholic identity. I am not sure if you understand the spiritual damage that has been wrought by some approaches to the meaning of the Second Vatican Council as it pertains to Catholic identity. A Church, marked above all by tradition, overnight suddenly appeared to abandon it. The question becomes what are we? What do we really have?

A religion in which it really matters whether the leader wears Polish cordovans or bespoke red Italian leather shoes is a religion in deep trouble.

 

[Breathe]

the speech went right over the heads of ordinary people in the street, i am sure it was meant for academics, who else would get it.

Oh yeah, I agree.

I thought it was an interesting read, and definitely not made for those without much knowledge of the area. The pope made it clear he was quoting.

It seems as though instead of finding out if his words had been twisted, Muslims were too quick to jump into protest and start killing people and attacking churches. This is scary considering it wasn't something he even said - and he even defended Islam in the next part of his speech.

I do think that the pope's current declaration on Islam though, is a good thing - but it does seem as though he's still tripping over himself to appease them for something he didn't even say, and it seems as though many Muslims have not "forgiven" him for it..

 

[kai]

Oh yeah, I agree.

I thought it was an interesting read, and definitely not made for those without much knowledge of the area. The pope made it clear he was quoting.

It seems as though instead of finding out if his words had been twisted, Muslims were too quick to jump into protest and start killing people and attacking churches. This is scary considering it wasn't something he even said - and he even defended Islam in the next part of his speech.

I do think that the pope's current declaration on Islam though, is a good thing - but it does seem as though he's still tripping over himself to appease them for something he didn't even say, and it seems as though many Muslims have not "forgiven" him for it..

sometimes people hear what they want to hear, and sometimes people have a vested interest in what they are telling you to hear.

 

[emiliano]

This is going so well, well done everybody, to Lava I like to say that as far as I know the Pope purpose in this is a missionary purpose and that you may be right in thinking that he could have a conversion agenda, it is my believe that this is inevitable because he is God’s servant he must preach the word of God and those that hear the word will react to it in accordance to God’s will, why are Muslim so afraid that their people hear the word? As for peace Christianity does not pose itself as a peaceful religion.

Mat 10:34
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. ​

When God call us to the Savior our soul looses it peace, the word of God is like a sword.

Eph 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
Hbr 4:12
For the word of God [is] living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. ​