Mmhmm. Plus, we really don't know enough about the brain and the mind to be sure either way on this question so it's really a waste of time right now.
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What is your stance on free will?
- Thread starter ZenMonkey
- Start date
Mmhmm. Plus, we really don't know enough about the brain and the mind to be sure either way on this question so it's really a waste of time right now.
Thanks for telling us your personal opinion.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
What do you think is the difference?
"Every thought and action is controlled by the brain — the body’s most complex organ. The brain is divided into functional units with particular tasks, like processing visual information or responding to fearful experiences. Each of these units is made up of brain cells that work together. These cells also form connections with cells in other functional units, creating communication routes for brain signals. Using new tools to tag and trace brain circuits, scientists are working to better understand how the human brain is organized to perform its many functions. Ongoing studies in animals and people are helping scientists recognize the many different types of brain cells and the roles they play. In addition, imaging technology is helping map brain regions responsible for specific functions and behaviors."
Neuroanatomy - BrainFacts.org
Difference Between Mind and Brain
"Summary
Most of the scientists and thinkers believe that brain and mind are one and cannot be separated.
While brain is considered to be a physical thing, Â the mind is considered to be mental.
Brain is made up of nerve cells and blood vessels whereas mind is not like that.
While brain has a definite shape, mind does not have one.
We can see and touch the brain whereas it is not possible with mind.
The brain is an important organ in the human body whereas the mind is not like that.
The brain, which is the centre of the nervous system, coordinates the movements, thoughts and feelings. The mind refers to a person’s understanding of things and also his conscience. Mind also refers to a person’s thought process.
The Brain has a definite place in the head, but with regard to mind, it is only supposed to be in the brain.
Difference Between Mind and Brain | Difference Between | Mind vs Brain
"Every thought and action is controlled by the brain — the body’s most complex organ. The brain is divided into functional units with particular tasks, like processing visual information or responding to fearful experiences. Each of these units is made up of brain cells that work together. These cells also form connections with cells in other functional units, creating communication routes for brain signals. Using new tools to tag and trace brain circuits, scientists are working to better understand how the human brain is organized to perform its many functions. Ongoing studies in animals and people are helping scientists recognize the many different types of brain cells and the roles they play. In addition, imaging technology is helping map brain regions responsible for specific functions and behaviors."
Neuroanatomy - BrainFacts.org
Difference Between Mind and Brain
"Summary
Most of the scientists and thinkers believe that brain and mind are one and cannot be separated.
While brain is considered to be a physical thing, Â the mind is considered to be mental.
Brain is made up of nerve cells and blood vessels whereas mind is not like that.
While brain has a definite shape, mind does not have one.
We can see and touch the brain whereas it is not possible with mind.
The brain is an important organ in the human body whereas the mind is not like that.
The brain, which is the centre of the nervous system, coordinates the movements, thoughts and feelings. The mind refers to a person’s understanding of things and also his conscience. Mind also refers to a person’s thought process.
The Brain has a definite place in the head, but with regard to mind, it is only supposed to be in the brain.
Difference Between Mind and Brain | Difference Between | Mind vs Brain
The mind is abstract and intangible. It is our consciousness and sense of self. It's our rationality and personality. The brain has none of those properties. It cannot perceive. Rather it coordinates information from our surroundings and our bodies that our minds then make sense of. But then I can experience things, mentally, which aren't tied to information being sent to my body by its surroundings, such as by using imagination or dreaming.
The relationship between the mind and the brain is akin to the relationship between software and hardware.
Distinguishing Brain From Mind - Sally Satel - The Atlantic
The relationship between the mind and the brain is akin to the relationship between software and hardware.
Distinguishing Brain From Mind - Sally Satel - The Atlantic
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shawn001
Well-Known Member
Interesting article. Yes they have not perfected FMRI or Pet yet, but even since this was written they have gotten better at it and they have found some amazing discoveries with the technology.
"Advances in brain imaging techniques such as positron emission tomography (PET), single photon emission computed tomography (SPECT), and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), along with electro-encephalography (EEG), an earlier technique for monitoring brain activity are enabling scientists to produce remarkably detailed computer-screen images of brain structures and to observe neurochemical changes that occur in the brain as it processes information or responds to various stimuli and the formation of emotions ranging from love and lust to anger and disgust. "
You might also notice this line which goes back to the conversation on the unconscious mind, although they don't go there in this article.
"True, we do not exert as much conscious control over our actions as we think we do. Every student of the mind, beginning most notably with William James and Sigmund Freud, knows this"
"But then I can experience things, mentally, which aren't tied to information being sent to my body by its surroundings, such as by using imagination or dreaming."
Dreaming at night is brain activity and neurons firing. Daydreaming is brain activity neurons firing. Imagination is thoughts which are chemical and electrical impulses from the brain and neurons firing.
"It cannot perceive"
Your saying the brain cannot perceive through sight, smell and touch and taste? Our senses?
"But then I can experience things, mentally"
The second you experience something mentally that is because of the brains and firing neurons again communicating for you to even have an experience.
The Electric Brain
NOVA
How does a three-pound mass of wet gray tissue (the brain) succeed in representing the external world so beautifully? In this interview with noted neuroscientist Rodolfo Llinás of the New York University School of Medicine, find out how the rhythm of electrical oscillations in the brain gives rise to consciousness, and how failures in this rhythm can lead to a variety of brain disorders.
"But it all just boils down to cells talking to one another?
Some people believe we are something beyond neurons, but of course we are not. We are just the sum total of the activity of neurons. We assume that we have free will and that we make decisions, but we don't. Neurons do. We decide that this sum total driving us is a decision we have made for ourselves. But it is not."
NOVA | The Electric Brain
Visual Mind Games
NOVA
Like a tiny, ever-alert judge seated inside your head, your brain is constantly making decisions about evidence brought to it by way of your senses, to give you as clear an understanding as possible of what you're seeing, feeling, tasting, etc. Sometimes you can catch your brain trying to, well, make up its mind about how to present such information. Here we offer a series of optical brainteasers culled from Phantoms in the Brain, by Dr. V.S. Ramachandran and Sandra Blakeslee.
NOVA | Visual Mind Games
The mind is the subtotal of our brains neurons working and firing. No brain, no mind at all. No thoughts, no imagination, dreaming, sleeping, wondering, or consciousness. You don't have a mind if there is no chemical and electrical impulses and signals going on in the brain.
Lets take the phrase "I have made up my mind" What does that mean? How does that work? Is it a thought or a group of thoughts? Thoughts work how?
saint_frankenstein, do you know anything about Dr Vilayanur Ramachandran, who is consider one of the top neuroscientists in the world.
Take the Neuron Express for a brief tour of consciousness
"V.S. Ramachandran is Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition and Professor with the Psychology Department and the Neurosciences Program at the University of California, San Diego. A former BBC Reith Lecturer, he co-authored Phantoms in the Brain: Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind, with Sandra Blakeslee, and is the author of A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness."
[youtube]ojpyvpFLN6M[/youtube]
Rama - Take the Neuron Express for a brief tour of consciousness - YouTube
Prof V.S Ramachandran 'The tell-tale brain' at Mind & Its Potential 2012
What makes the human brain unique?
How have our brains evolved?
What makes us self-aware?
The neurons that shaped civilization
The amazing plasticity of the human brain
Professor V. S. Ramachandran, one of the world's most influential scientists, also known as the "Marco Polo" of neuroscience, University of California, San Diego, USA
[youtube]Gbg40kWin3g[/youtube]
Prof V.S Ramachandran 'The tell-tale brain' at Mind & Its Potential 2012 - YouTube
In order for you to make such statements, you have to have evidence that a definite causal link has been made between brain activity and all mental states and psychological phenomena. So far, that hasn't happened. If we're just robots controlled by unconscious impulses fed to us by our brains, then what of rational decision making or changing your mind? Does a neuron "think"? What is the "self", then? How can non-physical phenomena arise from a physical object? How does personal responsibility and the ability to change ourselves not break down? For example, a person with a "psychopathic brain" may not manifest the traits associated with psychopathy. Furthermore, they can consciously choose not to manifest psychopathic behaviors. In identity theory, that doesn't seem to make much sense if everything is dictated by our brain and its unique structures. (By the way, what I meant by "perceive" is making sense out of information sent through the senses through the brain and interpreted by the mind. For example, someone says something mean to me and I feel hurt by it. But then I can choose not to feel hurt by it. Or how I make sense of a book or a film. Or how emotions or sensations feel to me as an individual. Etc. I am referring to subjective psychological experiences.)
The mind-brain identity theory is fraught with problems that it can't hope to solve. The brain is an organ, it is not the Self itself.
Neuroscience is great for learning about the physical processes of the brain, but it will never tell us about anything more than that. It's like biologists trying to talk about religion. Their field of study simply doesn't cover it. That's what's going on with your neuroscientists that you love to quote. They're waxing philosophical when they're not philosophers. Leave the talk about the mind to psychologists. When scientists in "hard science" fields start to talk about abstract concepts, they tend to make a big mess out of it!
1 Identity Theory and Why it Won't Work | Marianne Talbot
The mind-brain identity theory is fraught with problems that it can't hope to solve. The brain is an organ, it is not the Self itself.
Neuroscience is great for learning about the physical processes of the brain, but it will never tell us about anything more than that. It's like biologists trying to talk about religion. Their field of study simply doesn't cover it. That's what's going on with your neuroscientists that you love to quote. They're waxing philosophical when they're not philosophers. Leave the talk about the mind to psychologists. When scientists in "hard science" fields start to talk about abstract concepts, they tend to make a big mess out of it!
1 Identity Theory and Why it Won't Work | Marianne Talbot
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Spirit or soul are the best words I know of, but they both have assorted theological baggage that makes them imprecise.
I do believe that it is the most important part of a person, although not the only important part.
A metaphor I could use would be that of an island chain. To us land creatures they are individuals. But to a porpoise they are all part of the same seabed. Its a matter of perspective not correct or incorrect.
I think the foundation of morality is the recognition that we are all part of a vast whole, even though the illusion of separation is strong.
Tom
Different referents. One is neurons.
Free will is inherent of being a person. I take the humanist stance towards it.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Note, the link is evil. Opened multiple browser windows until my network stopped it.
While reducing and equating mind with brain may make sense in some disciplines it's not very practical for philosophy, which is inclusive, not exclusive. Philosophy allows for ideas.
Hence, we allow the possibility of equating mind with all objects, external and otherwise, that are registered in memory; equating mind with soul; presenting mind as an abstract "realm" or a matrix of ideas; and equating mind with the brain.
Being a scientist doesn't make you right, it just makes you a scientist.
I don't think freedom is an absolute. We are only free to choose what we think is in our own best interest.
Wisdom is being aware of what truly is in our interest. Morally primitive people tend to make decisions based on the instincts we are born with. Those instincts are great for spreading our genes in the wild we evolved in.
Not well suited for creating the better life we can learn how to have.
Knowledge is Freedom.
Tom
As far as I understand what you mean by "freedom is an absolute," I agree; that we do choose what is in our best interests encapsulates free will.
"Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely. Now that you are safe and free to say whatever you please appoint some arbitrator who will impartially judge between us and lean only towards the truth and be free from the empery of passion, and that arbitrator shall be Reason..." (Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad)
The fact that we commonly choose things that aren't in our best interests is what I mean when I say we don't have free will. If we were always free to choose what is in our best interests, then we would be as free as possible for the limited creatures we are. But we keep getting born ignorant and dying long before most people become all that free.
Our freedom of will is constrained by our knowledge, which is extremely limited in the typical human animal. Even the best, most saintly, person struggles to maintain a truly free moral life. They aren't free from their animal instincts, just practiced at keeping control.
Tom
shawn001
Well-Known Member
I don't know why either of the sites would be evil and launch windows, they both are very legit. What link was it and sorry that happened to you.
"While reducing and equating mind with brain may make sense in some disciplines it's not very practical for philosophy,"
That's one reason why I asked if you studied neuroscience of the brain. I understand neuroscience is more reducing down to the basic's neuron interactions, which are starting to explain complex human thought, emotion and behavior. But its much more then that and they also keep in mind, no pun intended the big picture and everything you mentioned above. Neuroscience allows for ideas as well, including philosophy.
"equating mind with soul"
Well they have been looking a long time for the soul and it hasn't been found, nor will it likely be. There is an argument from both a theological viewpoint and a scientific one for no "soul."
"equating mind with the brain."
That is what I am talking about. The mind, our sense of self and the world around us is the totality of the operation of the entire brain structure down to the neurons communicating. They are the one and the same.
Modern Neuroscience is making huge advancements in understanding the brain. Some could be 'practical' for philosophy, some not perhaps.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
Which was one reason earlier on the thread I pointed out your unconscious mind sometimes makes a better decision then one your consciously aware of making and choosing does.
This also goes a little into willpower Tom.
How Can We Make Better Decisions?
Brain science helps redefine decision-making
How Can We Make Better Decisions? | Psychology Today
Whether the subject of our choice is in our best interest or not, that we do choose is an expression of free will.
Our knowledge is only limited if we compare it to an imagined vast store of unlimited knowledge. There's no such need to do that, though. Our choices will freely be based on the knowledge we do have, and that's all that's required of them. That's all that can possibly be.
"equating mind with all objects, external and otherwise, that are registered in memory"
This is what I'm talking about.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
They are registered in your unconscious memory, still you and still the way the brain works. That unconscious memory can make choices for you before your consciously aware of making them. The unconscious brain does it all the time.
There is also a physical limited to how much information and data the brain can store.
Let me ask you this what is a thought? How does that work?
There is also a physical limited to how much information and data the brain can store.
Let me ask you this what is a thought? How does that work?