What is your stance on free will?

[sinzzer]

Willamena, I do understand the subconscious and unconscious terminology.

I will ask you the same questions though.

Does the unconscious make decisions?

What decisions does the unconscious make without you being consciously aware of making the decision?

Yes,
He chose who he/she wants to love.
He chose wich actions he support to give the person energy or to drains his energy.
He had to chose wich sexe he/she is, it is a choise given from birth and its not your body or life experience who demand that,its your soul claiming who he/she is.
The unconscious mind dont accept lies, he chose to reject it.
In fact he wil reject al negative actions someone do,did or see in his life, and will remind the person until he accept his reality and forgiven him self.

The unconscious mind is part of the human soul, the human soul is pure and must remain pure.
So it wil reject al negative things what it sees or come on to "it".
The unconscious mind is just the voice of the soul, the subconscious mind is the voice of your own logic.
The subconscious mind is the student of your own school, and your unconscious mind is your teacher and dean.
He knows what is wright and wrong, he wil let you know.
By giving you energy or a bad feeling, PTSS is one of those effects.

What science or this video is saying that your brain does all these things, while in fact they just explain how the proces works.
This proces explains that every person have two sides in their brains.
But they dont explain why everyone has that, because to asnwer that qeustion you have to look to other factors were science dont look.

To understand the human body, you could read books but you will get more knowledge by knowing yourself.
To know yourself you have to walk a spiritual journey what could lead to unlightment, or to one phase were you understand more of yourself by life experience.
And when you walk this path, you can use the facts of science to see if there theory is wright or to understand the path to unlightment even better.
This path can only be founded by looking for facts, and the facts will lead to the path of truth.
And the path of truth leads to unlightment.

So what i mean is, the subconscious and unconscious mind both make choises.
it is because of ignorance that science can make tests like these and then comes with the asnwer they find.

When you take some rabbits out of nature and keep them for generations long on a farm, and then do tests on them to see how there brains are working.
Then those tests only prove how the brains work of rabbits who lived for generations long on that farm.
These tests would never give a objectively answer of how the brains works of rabbits.
If one rabbit walk the path to unlightment and then came back to explain what he saw or to compare the facts of science with his knowledge.
Then we would get more answers, to bad Rabbits dont talk.

SO what am trying to say is, the subconscious mind is the student and should stand open to learn in life, and accept the fact that he dont know everything.
This can lead to that the unconscious mind is the judge/teacher/the boss, who explains what is wright and wrong and whats best to do.
Am convinced this should be the way but just like with those rabbits, humanity lost the knowledge of their nature.
We are spiritual beings who lost the knowledge of their self and science can help but only to show you some facts.

But now many believe they are what they think, meanwhile fight battles with their self and hide it for the public, and once a while some cant hide anymore and reveal there agenda.
This could be small in relationship,family neighberhood or friends, but this could also be in big with countrys and wars.
Or some smart guy explain on a video about the subconscious and unconscious mind.
While in fact who do you need to explain more about yourself then you?

Am convinced the world is messed up because of the ignorance of the nature of humanity.
Because of this battle in almost every person some believe they have free will and some believe free will is a illusion.
Both are wrght and wrong if you ask me, free will is a illusion if you never free your own will!
Your will is free when you subconscious mind listen to the unconscious without a argument.
This can only be reached if you never unlearned that, you can still see it in kids.
Or learn it by walking the path of truth, it doesent even matter were you believe in, just follow the truth and the truth will set your will free.

 

[Mycroft]

The subconscious is related to any argument for freewill by many neuroscientists.

It is. But the subsconsious is only more evidence of the non-existence of free-will. You are subsconsciously affected by things at any given point, you can't help it and you can't stop it and it will, in turn, affect your behaviour even if only in an infinitestimally small way. That is not not free will.

Try going to North Korea as I did, then come back and tell me you still believe in Free Will.

 

[idav]

It is. But the subsconsious is only more evidence of the non-existence of free-will. You are subsconsciously affected by things at any given point, you can't help it and you can't stop it and it will, in turn, affect your behaviour even if only in an infinitestimally small way. That is not not free will.

Seems the subconscious is fighting the conscious mind for control but doesn't always get it. The conscious has the advantage of being able to process thing consciously, but yes it is often times hidden. The conscious mind has to fight back as well. Almost like there are two personalities wanting the freedom to be the will.

 

[Willamena]

Willamena, I do understand the subconscious and unconscious terminology.

I will ask you the same questions though.

Does the unconscious make decisions?

What decisions does the unconscious make without you being consciously aware of making the decision?

I am talking about how brain activity works to make a "conscious" decision before it "knows consciously" it made one.


Published on May 18, 2013
Neuroscientist Moran Cerf explains how our conscious mind is an observer of what the subconscious has already decided.

I was disputing the terminology that distinguishes "the unconscious" as if it was an "area" of mind "where" decisions are made. There is no such place.

Decisions are made, and those made unconsciously are simply decisions that we are not aware that we have made. A special "area" of the mind doesn't make them for us.

We are the observer of all the decisions we have made if our metaphysical image is of awareness that is past-tense of reality.

Edit:
None of this impacts free will.

 

[Thief]

We seem drifting over an area that might lean to reflex.

And some people are given to their impulses as if they ARE reflex.

I think that's where the confusion sets in.

"Oh!...I just couldn't help myself!"

Well ok....if you really have no self control....then you don't really have freewill.

Therefore I say.....we are defined by our denials.

 

[Mycroft]

We seem drifting over an area that might lean to reflex.

And some people are given to their impulses as if they ARE reflex.

I think that's where the confusion sets in.

"Oh!...I just couldn't help myself!"

Well ok....if you really have no self control....then you don't really have freewill.

Therefore I say.....we are defined by our denials.

Let's play a game.

Do something, now, it can be a thought or word or action - anything - that has no causal link with reading this particular post.

 

[Thief]

Let's play a game.

Do something, now, it can be a thought or word or action - anything - that has no causal link with reading this particular post.

Like choosing not to eat the last bit of chocolate in my lunch bag?

 

[Willamena]

Let's play a game.

Do something, now, it can be a thought or word or action - anything - that has no causal link with reading this particular post.

Free will isn't about uncaused actions, but self-caused actions.

 

[Mycroft]

Free will isn't about uncaused actions, but self-caused actions.

Those always come from somewhere in your experience, however.

 

[idav]

Those always come from somewhere in your experience, however.

I would still call that self-caused when it is coming from an independent system.

 

[Willamena]

Those always come from somewhere in your experience, however.

No, they come from you.

The only valid argument against free will is the elimination of "you."

Edit:
By reducing "you" to things like experience and environment, "you" is trivialized in order to be quietly and irrationally ignored.

 

[Straw Dog]

I believe that we are largely pre-determined by external natural and cultural influences until we learn how to harness our capacity for increasing self-determination through the concentration and mastery of internal processes. We grow a soul as it were.

 

[Thief]

No, they come from you.

The only valid argument against free will is the elimination of "you."

Edit:
By reducing "you" to things like experience and environment, "you" is trivialized in order to be quietly and irrationally ignored.

Perhaps this is the actual source of this thread.....
The vast majority of us are more or less corralled into the lives we lead.
Only a few climb their way to the top....appearing to come and go as they see fit.

The low end...the poverty levels....tend to be ignored.

 

[Mycroft]

No, they come from you.

The only valid argument against free will is the elimination of "you."

Edit:
By reducing "you" to things like experience and environment, "you" is trivialized in order to be quietly and irrationally ignored.

Without experiences for your brain to form associations, memories and patterns of behaviour, there would be no 'you'. If you were kept in isolation with no stimuli at all, merely blackness, you would be a jelly. There would not even be any development in the sight or hearing centres of the brain. 'You' are determined by the stimuli you receive over the course of your life (consciously and subconsiously) and determines every ounce of your behaviour right down to the reply you will give this post.

Free-will is about as real as the gods of human religions. And the belief in it based on as much faith and as much evidence.

 

[Willamena]

Without experiences for your brain to form associations, memories and patterns of behaviour, there would be no 'you'. If you were kept in isolation with no stimuli at all, merely blackness, you would be a jelly. There would not even be any development in the sight or hearing centres of the brain. 'You' are determined by the stimuli you receive over the course of your life (consciously and subconsiously) and determines every ounce of your behaviour right down to the reply you will give this post.

Free-will is about as real as the gods of human religions. And the belief in it based on as much faith and as much evidence.

You have outlined the reductive/eliminiative argument, in a nutshell. By reducing "you" to other things, "you" is trivialized right out of the picture in order to let them shine. This is how determinism can stand in opposition to free will, by trivializing "you."

Free will returns (to the picture) the moment we let "you" shine. Go for it.

 

[shawn001]

You have outlined the reductive/eliminiative argument, in a nutshell. By reducing "you" to other things, "you" is trivialized right out of the picture in order to let them shine. This is how determinism can stand in opposition to free will, by trivializing "you."

Free will returns (to the picture) the moment we let "you" shine. Go for it.

Willamena, do you study neuroscience?


The decisions which are made well before the decider is consciously aware of them, are considered fatal to free will.

Again neuroscience and the unconcious and free will are part of the discussion in neuroscience.

I was not saying there is some specific part of your brain that is the unconscious, that is not how it works and as I posted the neuroscientist calling it the subconscious is a term they use and some of the doctors in Neuroscience and psychophysiology, I have worked with over the years use both terms. Technically I understand you pointing it out on the terminology.

There is also another type of Brain in the gut called the enteric nervous system that also helps shape our decisions, hence "gut feelings" It has a hundred million nerve fibers as many as the spinal cord and forms at the embryo stage and connects the digestive system to the Brain via the vagus nerve.

The unconscious mind controls the autonomic nervous system, so you don't have to consciously think about breathing or your heart beating.

Its also evolved before the higher brain functions and is part of the fight or flight which is hardwired to the brain. Which is one reason it protects you from making bad decisions.

Again the unconscious mind is making decisions before the conscious mind is aware of "YOU" making them. But you think you consciously made the decision. I am surprised you don't know how much has gone into freewill and the unconscious mind and how the brain physically works and the freewill debate.


Free will is an illusion, biologist says

Free will is an illusion, biologist says

Think You're Operating on Free Will? Think Again

"There may be few things more fundamental to human identity than the belief that people are rational individuals whose behavior is determined by conscious choices. But recently psychologists have compiled an impressive body of research that shows how deeply our decisions and behavior are influenced by unconscious thought, and how greatly those thoughts are swayed by stimuli beyond our immediate comprehension.

Unconscious Will Sways Actions, Desires, Say Researchers - TIME


Eric Kandel: Unconscious Decision Making

Nobel-Prize winning neuropsychiatrist Eric Kandel describes new research which hints at the possibility of a biological basis to the unconscious mind.

[youtube]ph7LcupAENw[/youtube]
Eric Kandel: Unconscious Decision Making - YouTube

Neuroscience vs philosophy: Taking aim at free will
Scientists think they can prove that free will is an illusion. Philosophers are urging them to think again.

"As humans, we like to think that our decisions are under our conscious control — that we have free will. Philosophers have debated that concept for centuries, and now Haynes and other experimental neuroscientists are raising a new challenge. They argue that consciousness of a decision may be a mere biochemical afterthought, with no influence whatsoever on a person's actions. According to this logic, they say, free will is an illusion. "We feel we choose, but we don't," says Patrick Haggard, a neuroscientist at University College London.

You may have thought you decided whether to have tea or coffee this morning, for example, but the decision may have been made long before you were aware of it.

Neuroscience vs philosophy: Taking aim at free will : Nature News

 

[Willamena]

Willamena, do you study neuroscience?

Not at all.

The decisions which are made well before the decider is consciously aware of them, are considered fatal to free will.

This is basically true of all decisions, just as it's true of an empiricial reality that it exists prior to our being aware of it. The free will debate is not about how decisions get made but about who makes them (you vs. external factors), so how is this fatal to free will?

That we are not conscious of decisions until after we have made them is natural to the empirically thinking person, and in no way a threat to free will.

But you think you consciously made the decision.

To reword this in light of the abused terminology mentioned earlier: 'But you become aware that you made the decision.' But if not you, then who?

Free will is an illusion, biologist says

I refer you to post #10.

"There may be few things more fundamental to human identity than the belief that people are rational individuals whose behavior is determined by conscious choices.

I don't see the free will debate as being about whether the choice is consciously or unconsciously made, but whether you or some external factors are given the credit for the choice.

We made choices based on reasons, influences, opinion, versions of truth, and all sort of factors, but it's that we made the choice and not those factors that is an indicator that free will was in play.

 

[Willamena]

The debate as I usually encounter it is "free will vs. determinism." I haven't heard this version of the debate before (conscious decision vs. unconscious).

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The debate as I usually encounter it is "free will vs. determinism." I haven't heard this version of the debate before (conscious decision vs. unconscious).

In this case it comes down to whether one equates "conscious decisions" with "free will." If we look at our decisions as primarily a result of the compilation of various subconcious factors reaching some type of trigger point on a decision (and our "conscious decision" being an illusion created after-the-fact in our minds), then it is difficult to define exactly what was "free" about the decision, as it would appear to primarily be a highly automated (mechanistic) process.

 

[Willamena]

Free will is an illusion, biologist says

I only skimmed it, but this article doesn't deny free will, it models it.