• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

What is your stance on free will?

Mycroft

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Creature said:
In this case, the understanding I've adopted is this one: I am completely responsible for and completely in control of my actions.
Click to expand...


Of course you are. But the level of the responsibility you're willing to admit to, and the level of control you have is entirely informed by the stimuli that has acted upon you from the environment during the course of your life. Just as is the same with the people who refuse, or do not realise, that they are responsible for their own actions.
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Quatermass said:
Of course you are. But the level of the responsibility you're willing to admit to, and the level of control you have is entirely informed by the stimuli that has acted upon you from the environment during the course of your life. Just as is the same with the people who refuse, or do not realise, that they are responsible for their own actions.
Click to expand...

On one hand you ask for evidence for free will, yet on the other you provide it. That "you," that thing that is swayed by environmental factors, that is capable of having some or having no responsibility, that illusion of self around which our entire civilized world is not only contrived to serve but constructed to support that same illusive force, that is its will. There is no distancing self from will or will from self--where there is one illusion, there is its shadow.
 
Mycroft

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Willamena said:
On one hand you ask for evidence for free will, yet on the other you provide it. That "you," that thing that is swayed by environmental factors, that is capable of having some or having no responsibility, that illusion of self around which our entire civilized world is not only contrived to serve but constructed to support that same illusive force, that is its will. There is no distancing self from will or will from self--where there is one illusion, there is its shadow.
Click to expand...

An error of language which is, sadly, woefully inadequate.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Creature said:
I don't think we know to what extent we are truly 'in control' of our choices.
Click to expand...
You may not, but I do, and it's zilch. "Choice (choosing)" as an act---as opposed to an apparent option--- is an illusion. You choose nothing.
 
C

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
Appearance does not mean fact.

Bob gets angry and hits Ted.
It appears Bob made the choice to hit Ted.
The night before he ate a lot of rancid food and drank a lot,
this knocked his hormones off balance, which created increased irritablity and agitation.

His environment made his choice for him, but now that event will be followed by a reaction.
Bob will get arrested.

Bob gets out of prison, bobs experience in prison creates more changes in his Psyche.
then Bob says no next fight because of his experience of being a prisoner.

It appears like Bob is making choices and is responsible, but this is an illusion created by seeing a person as independent from the rest of reality.
But realizing that the body is part of the enviroment, we can realize how environmental factors make a brains choices before it makes them.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Contemplative Cat said:
Appearance does not mean fact.

Bob gets angry and hits Ted.
It appears Bob made the choice to hit Ted.
The night before he ate a lot of rancid food and drank a lot,
this knocked his hormones off balance, which created increased irritablity and agitation.

His environment made his choice for him, but now that event will be followed by a reaction.
Bob will get arrested.

Bob gets out of prison, bobs experience in prison creates more changes in his Psyche.
then Bob says no next fight because of his experience of being a prisoner.

It appears like Bob is making choices and is responsible, but this is an illusion created by seeing a person as independent from the rest of reality.
But realizing that the body is part of the enviroment, we can realize how environmental factors make a brains choices before it makes them.
Click to expand...

Ever hear of repeat offenders?
And the food doesn't stop 'bob' from becoming a beast as he works out and learns to defend himself in prison.

I don't believe chemistry is the culprit.

And whether it is or isn't....once we are free of our chemistry we become what we truly are.

That said.....what if bob was of spirit that chemistry would have made no difference?
Beefing up in prison would be a sign of acceptance.
He would adapt.....willfully.
And he would come out of prison.....socially adjusted?

If chemistry is the culprit......then you ARE going to condone....
use of drugs in prison to pacify the inmates.

And maybe we should all be smoking something.
I used to hear the hippies say......'mellow out man....mellow out.....'
 
Last edited:
C

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
There are a variety of outcomes that could occur, this is also based on previous experience. As well as genetics. In this example however, Bob was rehabilitated, he was chill.

Choices happen, but our choices are not really our choices. We still must do our best in our day to day situations.
 
C

Contemplative Cat

energy formation
Don't condone anything in particular, just act appropriately according to each situation.
In fact all this info doesn't matter until someone realizes nature as a whole instead of many objects.

You are looking at a relative and practical reality.
But ultimately there is no real choice, because their is no Bob, only nature.
When contemplating anything, one can observe the conditions giving rise to that quality of nature. So "Bob" is a product of his environment.
 
shawn001

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Skwim said:
Doing a quick search of "free will" within the article it appears freewill plays no part in the subconscious, so I fail to see the importance of the subconscious to the topic of freewill. :shrug:
Click to expand...

Its there for sure and its extremely relevant to the topic. This is something I have studied in depth.
 
shawn001

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Sorry Swim, its the role the subconscious plays on freewill. Not freewill's role on the subconcious.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
shawn001 said:
Sorry Swim, its the role the subconscious plays on freewill. Not freewill's role on the subconcious.
Click to expand...
Problem is, I have yet to see a convincing argument for the existence of freewill, so your statement that "its the role the subconscious plays on freewill" is moot. I was hoping you had evidence that the subconscious might bring some life to the freewill issue. Alas . . . . . . . . you don't; and the subconscious remains unrelated to any argument for freewill.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I see confusion.....free will as compared to control.

Sure....plenty of things we don't have control over.

Suntan when it rains?.....no.
Make the storm go away by willfullness?.....no.
( though there is rumor it can be done.)

But for those of us still in struggle.....it may seem we have no 'free' will.
Just will.

Will you do it?.....will you try?....will you fail?.....will you care?

I can't rule out free will.
It seems some things.....I do control.
 
idav

idav

Being
Premium Member
Quatermass said:
Well our associative memory is far more complex than the slugs. We can make more associations, form more concepts by rearranging those associations, remember our experiences and so on, which makes our behaviour, in turn, more complex.
Click to expand...
A practice of mindfulness can allow a person to rise above the influence, it is partly the complexity that makes that a strong possibility. A person would have to be able to ignore the influences and the mindfulness part helps us out with the subconscious associations that we normally can't or don't control. I have even heard that men have something called a nothing box so meditating in this box can keep the influences out. The mind of a woman I'm afraid is a bit harder to quiet down, so I hear lol.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Skwim said:
And it's the "seeming" part that's the illusion. Just saying. ;)
Click to expand...

Unable to 'see'?
But that's common enough....hence this discussion.

You would think by now....with all the many endeavors that Man is involved in...people would readily agree.....
Man IS a creature of freewill.
 
Skwim

Skwim

Veteran Member
Thief said:
Unable to 'see'?
But that's common enough....hence this discussion.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I'm not following you here. :shrug:

You would think by now....with all the many endeavors that Man is involved in...people would readily agree.....
Man IS a creature of freewill.
Click to expand...
Well, I wouldn't think so. I fail to see how being involved in many endeavors would bring anyone to believe "Man IS a creature of freewill."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top