What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?

[no-body]

You have a choice whether or not to believe in Him.

Parent puts a gun to their childs head "believe in what I tell you or die, but it's your choice entirely"

 

[Rakhel]

What kind of god would punish people for not believing?

That seems more like something a priest would cook up than any god worthy of worship.

Let me restate my earlier post:
What makes you non-believers think you are so special that you think you are the only ones going to hell? Everyone has to pay, otherwise you are shoplifting.

 

[Blackdog22]

Let me restate my earlier post:
What makes you non-believers think you are so special that you think you are the only ones going to hell? Everyone has to pay, otherwise you are shoplifting.

Unless you believe of course. According to the Bible if you believe Jesus was the son your sins are paid for, and eternal happiness is yours. If not then God wrath will spill out onto you and damn you for eternity. I can pull up multiple scriptures from John that point this out to anyone who doesn't know there Bible(Not calling you out Rakhel, just speaking in general).

You have a choice whether or not to believe in Him.

You have a choice whether to sit in my invisible chair or not..... It is so sad you don't believe in my chair.... If you did you would sit in complete comfort for all time, but instead you choose not to believe in my very real, non existent chair... Your choice! Now you get tortured with splinters for all eternity because my chair loves you oh so very much! It's grace is so sufficient and it sent a little chair down to earth 2000 years ago for you!! And you reject it's most obvious, invisible, nonexistent gift. How ignorant of you.

Do you find this story rediculous yes or no? If so why?

I would argue you are actually the one who doesn't understand your own Gods concepts. Most Christians can't agree on his concepts and the idea that you have it right is most unlikely. Also there are about 4 Christians and 5 Atheists posting on this topic so don't use the bullying excuse anymore.

 

[Rakhel]

Sorry but Jesus is not in my basket.

Jesus is not a "get out of jail free" card. No one is that special. he paid for his sins. Peter paid for his. Even paul and steven.
If you don't pay in this life you have to pay in the next.

 

[WayFarer]

Problem with your thought is this is pretty much the idea how it works with Chriistianity; but carnal man cannot see God or preceive God or anything spiritual for he is dead in trustpasses and sin and is a slave to sin. It was God who caused man to fall; it it god who is responsible to turn on the light.

I am afraid that I have to disagree. Christianity is (from the standpoint of my earlier post) "an attempt to understand the source that you can't see". The post goes not to state that "God is infinitely patient and loving and will wait for us to find the error of our ways and return to the light." IMHO mankind need no special knowledge nor priest. Nothing need stand between a person and "the light" or its source. If someone chooses to close their eyes, to look away, or to allow someone/something else to become between themselves and the light that is their choice. A choice that, in time, they may choose to change.

 

[Blackdog22]

I am afraid that I have to disagree. Christianity is (from the standpoint of my earlier post) "an attempt to understand the source that you can't see". The post goes not to state that "God is infinitely patient and loving and will wait for us to find the error of our ways and return to the light." IMHO mankind need no special knowledge nor priest. Nothing need stand between a person and "the light" or its source. If someone chooses to close their eyes, to look away, or to allow someone/something else to become between themselves and the light that is their choice. A choice that, in time, they may choose to change.

So your logic is that we are turning away from an invisible light? Mmhmm. God isn't infinitely patient for one. According to the Bible God will judge us all at judgement day. So there is a deadline I am afraid. Also people die in car wrecks every day, by natural disaster, murder, accidents, animals. So even if God was infinitely patient, our lives are not infinite, which should be obvious.

So lets put what your saying in perspective to reality, and it should read: "God shines an invisible light that we can't see with the senses he himself gave us. We have a very short window of time to see this invisible light or we die and burn in hell. The end."

You know what. I retract my belief. I am officially a believer! Omw to get my first fish sticker!

 

[Dezzie]

Jesus is not a "get out of jail free" card.

Well said... I 100% agree with this statement. I never believed that part of Christianity anyway, 'that Jesus died for your sins and if you believe in him, you'll be saved.' It seems exactly like what you mentioned "a get out of jail free card".

 

[Misty]

Well said... I 100% agree with this statement. I never believed that part of Christianity anyway, 'that Jesus died for your sins and if you believe in him, you'll be saved.' It seems exactly like what you mentioned "a get out of jail free card".

Exactly!

 

[Benoni]

Unless you believe of course. According to the Bible if you believe Jesus was the son your sins are paid for, and eternal happiness is yours. If not then God wrath will spill out onto you and damn you for eternity. I can pull up multiple scriptures from John that point this out to anyone who doesn't know there Bible(Not calling you out Rakhel, just speaking in general).

You ever heard of the "wrath" of the lamb? That is how the Bible calls God's wrath. I can show you just as many scriptures that declares the salvation for all; some you do not even know that are there because you have never bwwn shown.

You have a choice whether to sit in my invisible chair or not..... It is so sad you don't believe in my chair.... If you did you would sit in complete comfort for all time, but instead you choose not to believe in my very real, non existent chair... Your choice! Now you get tortured with splinters for all eternity because my chair loves you oh so very much! It's grace is so sufficient and it sent a little chair down to earth 2000 years ago for you!! And you reject it's most obvious, invisible, nonexistent gift. How ignorant of you.

Really???? Where does it say you have a choice for salvation. I can show you where you do not have a choice for salvation that God draws you drags you I like the word forces you. But no where does it say carnal man has a choice.

Do you find this story rediculous yes or no? If so why?

I would argue you are actually the one who doesn't understand your own Gods concepts. Most Christians can't agree on his concepts and the idea that you have it right is most unlikely. Also there are about 4 Christians and 5 Atheists posting on this topic so don't use the bullying excuse anymore

.

I do not see your point?

bullying excuse

?????????????

 

[Benoni]

Wayfarer:

This is not my opinion it is black and white literal Bible verse you disagree with…

There is no life to choose spiritual things when you are dead in trespasses and sin; have you ever seen a dead man choose anything; he is dead and cannot hear, see, touch anything. This is so much more true when it comes to being spiritually dead. Notice what 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us about the man with out the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

God is infinitely patient and loving and will wait for us to find the error of our ways and return to the light

This is true… God is not calling all people now.


"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

mankind need no special knowledge nor priest.

Really?

The Priesthood of God (Melchizedek) for the remainder of all heathen people. Do you know anything about the Tabernacle of David which I am posting below?

Why God would makes his overcomers Kings and Priest if there was no one to minister to. Notice all the below verses are in reference to Mt Zion (the heavenly throne)

Revelations 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.


Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

 

[Blackdog22]

You ever heard of the "wrath" of the lamb? That is how the Bible calls God's wrath. I can show you just as many scriptures that declares the salvation for all; some you do not even know that are there because you have never been shown.

I know all about the Salvation scripture. Do you consider flooding the Earth a lambs wrath? How about infanticide? The apocalypse? Here is what the Bible claims on natural disasters:

"The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury?

I can see Gods wrath on the news constantly. According to the Bible these are his works. The salvation you speak of can't be seen anywhere. So what your saying has no meaning.

Another point I will make is both of these things contradict themselves. A God who is full of mercy and salvation and a God who has no mercy and murders everyone. Since your book contradicts itself. Which one of these takes priority? If I present more scripture contradictory to your scripture do I win? If you present more scripture do you win?

 

[logician]

He just did. If you would like to set up semantic puzzles as a stumbling block for yourself, so be it! And an artist will do the same to his precious arts if they are somehow contaminated by others (a foe).


He sets up physics laws to govern the universe. Similarly, He sets up Law to rule humans and angels. Those sinned (broke His Law) will be kept outside of Kingdom. Lucifer sinned and was driven out, Adam sinned and was driven out.

Since the fall of Adam, humans are no longer inside the Kingdom of God. They need to pass the final judgment in order to make a return. Yet they choose to decend further away from God. So if judged by Law they are pretty much dead. Jesus is thus sent and through His self-sacrificed people can thus be saved by abiding by a New Covenant, that is, to believe in Jesus Christ.

Moreover, fairness is built on Law, not Grace nor Gift. So go back to Law if you want fairness. Salvation through Jesus Christ is a Grace, it's a gift. Everyone who heard the Gospel can pick the gift. Yet those who deny God as their father will refuse to take the gift, in the end only His sons and daughters will pick the gift and be saved, as planned.

Except this doesn't work for billions who have never heard of the supposed Jesus, or who live in different cultures with other religions, or who plain don't choose to believe this illogical line of thought.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Curious? What kind of reason is that?

Is not believing such a simple matter?
You first have to prove that God punishes people for that reason. You then have to explain what not believing really means within the context of whatever scripture you might quote.
If you look deeper into the matter it is possible that disbelief is not the root of the problem. Disbelief may arise from the root of the reason for punishment, but not be the actual reason for any punishment.

 

[WayFarer]

Ok. Let's look at the original question:

Curious? What kind of reason is that?

Let's look at the forum we're in:
Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates / General Religious Debates / What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?
Let's look at the first part of my post:

Since the question was not "God of the Bible" or anything specific, I would like to go generic in my post as well.

By generic I meant:

Generic is something that is general, common, or inclusive rather than specific, unique, or selective.
​

By that I meant I would approach it form a non specific theological position. (Read: not specific to any one religion/text.)

God isn't infinitely patient for one. According to the Bible God will judge us all at judgement day. So there is a deadline I am afraid.

This is not my opinion it is black and white literal Bible verse you disagree with…

This question was not uniquely Christian in nature. Nor was it asked in a Christian forum/dir. The original poster did not use any terms that are specifically Christian, as I did not in my original post. So why are the arguments against that post using the Bible as reference to where my post is wrong. Should I dig up Dharmic texts that say I am right? Would that be considered valid in the eyes of those who have thus far replied to my post? Most likely not, so why would the Bible carry any specific weight in a generic religious discussion or at least to a generic religious reply? Feel free not to bother answering if it can not be done without proselytizing.

 

[Blackdog22]

Consider it a response to any Christians who may be viewing what you said from a Christian perspective. Attempting to tackle every religion with one question/answer is impossible. If I don't narrow it down then nothing can be discussed, but I understand what your saying.

Although I would have to ask. Under being a generic response. How exactly do you figure out which faith allows you to see this invisible light source? What if you think your feeling the light source, but it is just a placebo or emotional response.

 

[Nerthus]

I would argue you are actually the one who doesn't understand your own Gods concepts. Most Christians can't agree on his concepts and the idea that you have it right is most unlikely.

Get over yourself, you don't know anything about me.

 

[Benoni]

What Chrisitian religion really miss is their faith in God is thought the eyes of what ever religious system they follow; it is the Chrsit within where truth is. The Holy Spirit is with in us. All of us know deep down who God is in our spirit. But most religious minds look elsewhere for truth; and reject the anonting with in.

Consider it a response to any Christians who may be viewing what you said from a Christian perspective. Attempting to tackle every religion with one question/answer is impossible. If I don't narrow it down then nothing can be discussed, but I understand what your saying.

Although I would have to ask. Under being a generic response. How exactly do you figure out which faith allows you to see this invisible light source? What if you think your feeling the light source, but it is just a placebo or emotional response.

 

[Benoni]

WayFarer

Because religion is manmade; the spiritual Word of God is divine.

This question was not uniquely Christian in nature. Nor was it asked in a Christian forum/dir. The original poster did not use any terms that are specifically Christian, as I did not in my original post. So why are the arguments against that post using the Bible as reference to where my post is wrong. Should I dig up Dharmic texts that say I am right? Would that be considered valid in the eyes of those who have thus far replied to my post? Most likely not, so why would the Bible carry any specific weight in a generic religious discussion or at least to a generic religious reply? Feel free not to bother answering if it can not be done without proselytizing

 

[rkm7878]

Is not believing such a simple matter?
You first have to prove that God punishes people for that reason. You then have to explain what not believing really means within the context of whatever scripture you might quote.
If you look deeper into the matter it is possible that disbelief is not the root of the problem. Disbelief may arise from the root of the reason for punishment, but not be the actual reason for any punishment.

Finally! Great answer!
First, a God who would send people to hell simply for not believing would be a strange one in my opinion.
Now there seems to be an implication in most of the replys that we are talking about the God of the Bible. But I am sorry to tell you all that the God of the Bible created man to have a personal relationship with Him. If you created a robot and left it no choice in matters could you say that your robot loved you? No. You can not call being forced into something love. God gave man a choice. Be in a relationship with me and do not eat this fruit (the choice) and you will live forever. At the first sign of temptation man failed. Now I have to ask you a question. Do you believe in good and evil, right and wrong? If so look at the posistion God is now in. God promised that if man ate of the fruit he would die. God must keep his word. Also God being perfect requires perfection. Now at this point some want to talk about God's ego or some such idea because they are trying to view God as a person and not as GOD. Your weak attempts to call God childish show that you are arrogant by all human standards. If God is what we would recognize as good then Satan is what we would call bad, and not in the red tail and pitch fork way, but in the child molester, murderer, rapist kind of way. In order to maintain His holiness God must have no part in wrong doing so he seperates man (who was created to be in a loving relationship with Him) from Himself. Now that man knows good and evil God informs them through His law that they have a choice to do wrong and be punished or do right and be rewarded. Mankind is over and over again unable to do right. God created man to have a relationship do you think God did not know the choices man would make? He did and He had a plan ready to right that relationship. First man needed to see that the law could not save him because man could not keep the law. Then God would send a savior. How would he save them? By keeping the law that man could not keep and then taking on the punishment that was meant for those who would be seperated from God because of their sin. Now the price is paid. It is finished. All who trust in Jesus Christ will be saved. What about those who do not trust in Him? Imagine for a moment that you are able to create life. You allow the life form to have a choice of loving you or not loving you. Being with you or not being with you. Is it fair that you have allowed them this choice? Would it be fair if you did not allow them this choice? Now imagine that you are Holy and perfect and good. Apart from you there is no good not because you have an ego problem but because it is who you are. This is how it is with God apart from Him there is no good because it is who He is. So if you reject Him you will cause yourself to be apart from the one who created you to have good things and a good life and you will enter into a place where there is no good. Apart from God is evil and not the kind with a red tail and pitch fork. As for those who have never heard of Jesus God will be their judge not us. But for all who have heard and in their arrogance reject Him because they think they know better than the God who created them hell is their reward. Hell= seperation from God from Good and eternal life in what is left away from the source of all good. I do not serve an evil God but one who loves me and has saved me even though I turned my back on Him.

Thank you God, I am so greatful!

 

[Blackdog22]

Is not believing such a simple matter?
You first have to prove that God punishes people for that reason. You then have to explain what not believing really means within the context of whatever scripture you might quote.
If you look deeper into the matter it is possible that disbelief is not the root of the problem. Disbelief may arise from the root of the reason for punishment, but not be the actual reason for any punishment.

John 3:18He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I looked into the matter. God himself says he who believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life. It is the most popular saying that Jesus has. Do I honestly have to show this?