What kind of god would punish people simply for not believing?

[ByeRaagi Rayaprolu]

So you are now telling me about a religion you don't believe in? You don't know what my beliefs are.

Comrade Religious_Girl, plzzz remember that the entire politico-religious career of The Church has been about telling outsiders all the bad things about their native religions which the church could never even comprehend (forget about believing)..and i believe that Father_Heathen, besides many rationalists/materialists here, has a much gr8er understanding of Bible than what missionaries got about others' Holy-Scriptures...and u c, thanx to Son of God, Christianity, in its popular form, is quite a simple religion which any layman can understand and follow.
We love Jesus and we know that Jesus loves us even if we don't buy the subsequent but not strictly consequent "products", of which he was made an "exclusive" brand-ambassador forever.
May The ONE GOD OF ALL religions and of all worlds forgive me.
AMEN/OM
_________________________________________________________________

 

[Tathagata]

There's a differences. Imposing ones religious beliefs upon others against their will is a violation of their rights and liberty,

What? Are you kidding me? If someone tried imposing their religious beliefs onto me, I won't take that as a "violation of my rights and liberty," I would take it as a great debate opportunity to demonstrate the error of their thinking.


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[Nerthus]

and my growing attachment with this Forum made me lose cool when u blamed it on the Forum..those were certainly some Satanic verses from me..i'll never ever repeat this with any friend here. sorry a thousand times, comrade.

I simply said that this forum wasn't what I first thought it was. That isn't blaming anything on the forum, just stating how my initial thoughts on the place don't live up to how I see it now.

 

[ByeRaagi Rayaprolu]

i admit that i've not only misbehaved but also entirely misinterpreted ur words..
plzzzz gimme some courage and opportunity to reform myself by forgiving me..i'm sorry once again..

 

[Benoni]

Bad point; no point.

No one can believe until god first calls them. God is not calling the whole world now.

John 3:18He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I looked into the matter. God himself says he who believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life. It is the most popular saying that Jesus has. Do I honestly have to show this?

 

[it's_sam]

I dont think its as much as God is punishing people who chose not to believe, but rather they never found their path to God and so would be lost trying to find their way home to him. God offers himself to us individualy so we can find our place with him, but this also means we have found him in ourselves. If you cant find that you wouldnt be expected to find him in the thrawls of space especialy considering if you still "did not believe" after dying and finding yourself in a new body floating in space. Asside from this I see many people punishing themselves with thoughts and acts wich will leave them alone in life, it doesnt suprise me it wouldnt transfer into death. If you reach out in life or death there will usualy be a hand there to help.

 

[Benoni]

Everything to everyone 1 Cor 15:24-28
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (KJV)


I like the Amplified which declares. “Everything to everyone”

28However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].

This is the end of the Lord not punishment; punishment is part process...BUT it is far from the end of all of us.

 

[rkm7878]

John 3:18He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I looked into the matter. God himself says he who believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life. It is the most popular saying that Jesus has. Do I honestly have to show this?

Ok. Now the question is why do you have to believe? The point is there is more to it than belief for the sake of belief. Sin seperates us from God. Jesus paid for our sin. Belief in Jesus and His paying for our sin makes our relationship with God right again. So saying that God would punish you for simple unbelief is intellectual dishonesty. He punishes you for your sin.

 

[Rakhel]

Ok. Now the question is why do you have to believe? The point is there is more to it than belief for the sake of belief. Sin seperates us from God. Jesus paid for our sin. Belief in Jesus and His paying for our sin makes our relationship with God right again. So saying that God would punish you for simple unbelief is intellectual dishonesty. He punishes you for your sin.

Exactly. Because if jesus died for our sins, then that would mean we sin no more. This sin would include that of disbelief. Making this entire argument moot.

 

[WayFarer]

Although I would have to ask. Under being a generic response. How exactly do you figure out which faith allows you to see this invisible light source? What if you think your feeling the light source, but it is just a placebo or emotional response.

I would say a spiritual approach more than a religious one, if you know what I mean. I also hope that my light source post is taken to be a parable and, of course, not literal.

Because religion is manmade; the spiritual Word of God is divine.

With respect, Benoni, and this you may just view as my opinion if you wish but I agree that religion is man made and I see Word of God (I'm guessing you are talking about the Bible here) as being divinely inspired, but written by the hands of men for their understanding. Since the understanding of man is imperfect, and words are imperfect, such books are inspiring, but not perfect.

However this takes us too far off course for this thread. If either of you would like to discuss this via pm I would be happy to. As for me, I think I'll try to refrain from posting back in this thread as my poor mastery of the language and/or forum protocol may cause hurt feelings, convey a firmly held belief as an argumentative stance, or a poorly worded sentence as an attack.

 

[Rakhel]

when I was Christian, I was taught that all of our sins(past, present and future) were absolved, or take care of, because he died for them. That our sins mean nothing in the afterlife. That because we believed in ,not only him, but that he died for us, we were all going to Heaven regardless of what sin we committed.

 

[rkm7878]

when I was Christian, I was taught that all of our sins(past, present and future) were absolved, or take care of, because he died for them. That our sins mean nothing in the afterlife. That because we believed in ,not only him, but that he died for us, we were all going to Heaven regardless of what sin we committed.

I think I misunderstood you. If I did I apologize.

 

[Father Heathen]

What? Are you kidding me? If someone tried imposing their religious beliefs onto me, I won't take that as a "violation of my rights and liberty," I would take it as a great debate opportunity to demonstrate the error of their thinking.


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I'm not talking about those who are only trying to promote their beliefs. I'm talking about those who would turn their religious views into your laws if given the chance, effectively reducing your rights and freedoms. Those sort of people don't have an ear for debate.

 

[rkm7878]

I'm not talking about those who are only trying to promote their beliefs. I'm talking about those who would turn their religious views into your laws if given the chance, effectively reducing your rights and freedoms. Those sort of people don't have an ear for debate.

Do not steal
Do not murder
Do not lie about your neighbor in court

They are not all bad.

 

[LiLrEd]

One I cldnt imagine. We were created w/ an open mind. We can think. A God wldnt punish us for not believing b/c we have a choice. That was givin by our god.

 

[Father Heathen]

Do not steal
Do not murder
Do not lie about your neighbor in court

They are not all bad.

They're not, but they're common sense (in fact civilization requires civility and cooperation to exist) and hardly exclusive or original to any religion. You don't need a god to know that murdering, theft and other injustices are wrong, just a brain and a "heart" (that's in quotations because I don't mean the literal, blood pumping organ, obviously).

 

[Rakhel]

I think I misunderstood you. If I did I apologize.

It's okay. I am often misunderstood as much as I misunderstand.

Basically what I am trying to say is it doesn't matter what one believes. I believe that a belief in "jesus dying for our sins" really makes that statement moot. That to say that non-believe is a sin and "you will pay," contradicts everything a Christian believes about jesus's death. Dying for our sins means he died for everyone's sins, regardless of the sin.
Being Jewish, reform that I am, I choose to believe that everyone pays for his/her own sins. This does not mean it is an eternal damnation, just that one pays. Kind of like the analogy I used earlier. You're in a grocery store, you walk up to the cash resistor, an pay for your groceries. Some pay more, some pay less, but all pay.

 

[rkm7878]

It's okay. I am often misunderstood as much as I misunderstand.

Basically what I am trying to say is it doesn't matter what one believes. I believe that a belief in "jesus dying for our sins" really makes that statement moot. That to say that non-believe is a sin and "you will pay," contradicts everything a Christian believes about jesus's death. Dying for our sins means he died for everyone's sins, regardless of the sin.
Being Jewish, reform that I am, I choose to believe that everyone pays for his/her own sins. This does not mean it is an eternal damnation, just that one pays. Kind of like the analogy I used earlier. You're in a grocery store, you walk up to the cash resistor, an pay for your groceries. Some pay more, some pay less, but all pay.

Ok not trying to start anything but because you posted this with my apology I must respond. God has always given man a choice because without choice there can be no love. Jesus did pay for our sins, but we can reject him and continue to live for ourselves if we want. The worst mistake (sorry not offense) is to think that we could be good enough to earn our way into heaven or that we will be able to pay the price ourselves. If you went into a grocery store and got to the registor and you owed a millon dollars and the guy behind you offered to pay you could say no (maybe because you are affraid you would owe him something). Now if you began to work to pay off the debt and now and then you added to it you may find that you have no hope of ever paying it off. This like all analogies is flawed I know but I just wanted to share my point of view.

 

[Benoni]

Does Jesus need to die again? It sounds like what you are saying is His blood far weaker then the sin of Adam? Jesus paid the price once and for all for all.

Ok not trying to start anything but because you posted this with my apology I must respond. God has always given man a choice because without choice there can be no love. Jesus did pay for our sins, but we can reject him and continue to live for ourselves if we want. The worst mistake (sorry not offense) is to think that we could be good enough to earn our way into heaven or that we will be able to pay the price ourselves. If you went into a grocery store and got to the registor and you owed a millon dollars and the guy behind you offered to pay you could say no (maybe because you are affraid you would owe him something). Now if you began to work to pay off the debt and now and then you added to it you may find that you have no hope of ever paying it off. This like all analogies is flawed I know but I just wanted to share my point of view.

 

[Autodidact]

It's like telling your dad that your not his son.

Well that would be weird, but I don't think he'd condemn me to eternal torture over it. Oh, and my dad isn't invisible.