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What makes somebody atheist and not a theist?

PureX

Veteran Member
It's called order, because "design" implies a deliberate act. Order means that matter self-organizes into forms via the natural laws.
Except that matter does not "self-organize" into anything. It is the organized phenomenal result of a set of possibilities and impossibilities that determine that it can exist, and how it exists. And those possibilities and impossibilities when adhered to DESIGN the result. 'Design' is the proper word to use for that event scenario. And this process does imply the intention of achieving the result. However, it implies nothing beyond that.
A drop of water falls onto a pond and the circular ripples look like a design, but it's just how water behaves according to the laws of physics. Nothing can be shown that suggests that prop or set of ripples was designed.
The circular ripples are being 'designed' by the physical possibilities and impossibilities effecting the expression of energy that's involved in a droplet of water falling into a containment of water. What we see as a wave 'pattern' in the liquid field is the result of design. But the question of intent does not extend beyond that result.
This has been answered by science. You are reading debunked creationist disinformation by bringing up this reference. You should do more web searches before you cite embrassing things like this. Even Michael Behe admitted in court that Intelligent Design is not science.
The intelligence of existential design is what science tries to identify and study, and hopes to better understand. But it cannot identify or study the source: it can only study the 'design' process, and the observed results.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Perhaps you know some who pray to languages and clothes and foods. I have never met or read about such individuals but wouldn't be surprised if there are some. It doesn't matter. Your comparison as far as I am concerned is not a good one. But it's ok. Whatever...:)
Why do you assume that, if God exists, all humans should all perceive God in the same way? I can't think of any reason why anyone would assume this, and yet I hear it often cited as a reason to assume that God doesn't exist.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Word usage is incomplete in many areas. People may assume something based on a verbal description but it does not have to mean when the intention of the speaker was. Have a good one, by the way.
It's because language is so imprecise that we need to be mindful of the imprecision, and do the best we can to overcome it. Don't you think?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
It was strongly implied that theists lack reason.

I merely point out that theists have reasons for their beliefs.
that some people disagree with those reasons, and or dislike those reasons, and or do not understand those reasons, in no way make those reasons disappear.

It is basically the whole "evidence" paradigm all over again.
What people choose to call "evidence" varies wildly according to how they reason (cognitively negotiate and relate what they consider to be real information).

I see atheists demand "evidence" from theist all the time, and then when they get it, they dismiss it as not being evidence at all. And then they run here and there and everywhere shouting that, "THE THEISTS HAVE NO EVIDENCE". But why are they expecting and demanding that the theist's criteria for evidence must comport with their own? I can't think of a single logical reason why anyone would assume this.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Observation, investigation, reason, and experience are the means by which knowledge is acquired. Contempt prior to investigation, and dismissal of experiences that don’t fit our prejudices, are among the means by which ignorance becomes entrenched.
Yes, I know. Observation, investigation, and experience are all the same thing - apprehending physical reality, which revelations are called evidence once they become evident through the senses. Reason and memory tell us it's significance if we are skilled in the interpretation of evidence, which further experience confirms or disconfirms.

What experience did you think I was dismissing? People's claims of experiencing gods and spirits? If so, I don't dismiss that people have experiences that they understand in that way. I did once myself. I reject their conclusions regarding what they are actually experiencing, which I believe is likely nothing but their own minds. To have a spiritual experience is to have an intuition analogous to experiencing beauty, love, value, or humor. It would also be an unjustified leap of faith to understand any of those experiences as revealing a deity.

Did you want to rebut my comment? "Empiricism is the ONLY path to knowledge. The rest is guessing."
atheism is not properly defined by a lack of belief
That is incorrect, assuming that one specifies the lack of a god belief rather than any and all belief, which is EXACTLY what atheism is. Some like to add modifiers to make sure that stones, dogs, infants, and people that have never heard of gods aren't included. If that's you, we can define atheism as a "no" answer to the question of whether one holds a god belief.
Sloppy, irrational language does not help the conversation. 'Belief' is irrelevant. So then is "unbelief". What is relevant is what is being asserted, and why.
Disagree. Both belief and unbelief can be relevant, and assertions are beliefs - explicitly stated ones.
matter does not "self-organize" into anything.
Incorrect again. Through the transfer of energy and under the influence of fundamental forces in space and time, matter has organized itself into filaments of clusters of galaxies of solar systems comprising subatomic particles assembled into the elements, which has resulted in life and mind arising from that matter, energy, and force
'Design' is the proper word to use for that event scenario.
Not if the word implies conscious intent, which it does as you use it: "this process does imply the intention of achieving the result." It's one of the theistic apologist's favorite verbal sleights-of-hand -- using words with baggage that implies a deity. Try substituting pattern for design to get the implied agency out of the word. People tend not to think of patterners.

Another is creation (noun). Nope, not a creation if that word implies a conscious creator. So, to eliminate the theistic baggage, we should prefer to refer to it as reality or the universe, not the creation. We don't tend to think of universers, either.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Empiricism is the ONLY path to knowledge. The rest is guessing.
Is empiricism employed when the scientific journals say, “it probably happened this way”, or “it’s likely that….”?

Is that empiricism?

No, it’s guessing.

And the science literature is filled with such philosophical meanderings, isn’t it?

Your response to my previous post about the origin of the bacterial flagellum — “it exists” — is really circular reasoning, my friend.

I wish you a good day.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Sure, they adopted a social idea of a God or gods without reasoning. It's called social learning theory. Language and other cultural norms are adopted non-rationally as well. The symbolisms and ideas are learned, and their use is part or this learning if it is important. Many theists claim to believe in some idea of a god, but can't explain how they came to believe it. Mom and dad did, they went to church, all this happened since early youth, and it just became part of their brain's operating assumptions.
None of this has anything to do with the proper definition of a 'theist'.
No one learns about God or religion like we do history or science, which are factual and have real applications. Religious ideas are taught knowing they aren't factual, but this is ignored, and children adopt the ideas in a deceptive way.
Theism is not religion and religion is not theism. So none of this has anything to do with theism, or with those who profess an agreement with the theist proposition. But you will ignore this as always, and continue to complain about religion and religiosity wrongly thinking that it somehow discredits theism.
No gods are known to exist, and that is a truth that atheists acknowledge and respect.
If knowledge is the result of first hand direct experience. You have no say over this regarding other people.
Somehow atheists have been honest in assessing the many diverse sets of ideas about gods and religion, and they had the ability to reject the common cultural belief that they are true.
Which means nothing to anyone but them. Rejecting other people's idealized representations of God is really nothing more then ego-stroking as it has no effect whatever on anyone apart from stroking the atheist's ego.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is empiricism employed when the scientific journals say, “it probably happened this way”, or “it’s likely that….”? Is that empiricism? No, it’s guessing.
Yes. it's empiricism if it's based in experience (evidence). All claimed knowledge has some element of "probably." There is probably a real world outside of my mind that corresponds to my conscious model of my surroundings, and it's probably several billion years old but Descartes' demon and Last Thursdayism are logical possibilities that make such beliefs slightly less than certain. It's been a few years since my car hasn't started when I turned the key. I intend to drive it today. It will "probably happen" that it starts. "It is likely" that it will start. Is that a claim of fact. Yes. Is it testable. Yes. Do I know it experientially (empirically)? Yes.
Your response to my previous post about the origin of the bacterial flagellum — “it exists” — is really circular reasoning, my friend.
You wrote, "There’s no evidence the bacterial flagellum, or any other complex machine, could evolve, let alone did, and I answered, "It exists, and we find no intelligent designers. What needs evidence is the latter. If there are no intelligent designers, then it MUST have evolved naturalistically." That's not a circular argument. That's the evidenced argument that it exists naturalistically.

And we have no evidence of intelligent oversight being necessary or being involved. If there is no intelligent designer, the only possibility and therefore a fact is that the flagellum evolved without intelligent oversight.

You come home and find the hamburger you left defrosting on the table missing and the dog looking sheepish. The house has been locked since you left it last. What happened? I'd say that the evidence is excellent that the dog ate it, but it is logically possible that somebody with a key came in and took the meat.

Now, suppose somebody says that there's no evidence that the dog ate the meat - no CCTV footage, for example. What's your response? It would likely be similar to mine, which won't be circular, either. The hamburger is missing, and there is no evidence for a second thief. Are we certain it was the dog? No, nor do we need be, but we are probably correct, just as we will probably be correct that the car starts next time.

This is what you call speculation and guessing because there is an element of uncertainty, but I call a useful understanding of how at least this small part of reality works.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
You come home and find the hamburger you left defrosting on the table missing and the dog looking sheepish. The house has been locked since you left it last. What happened? I'd say that the evidence is excellent that the dog ate it, but it is logically possible that somebody with a key came in and took the meat.

Now, suppose somebody says that there's no evidence that the dog ate the meat - no CCTV footage, for example. What's your response? It would likely be similar to mine, which won't be circular, either. The hamburger is missing, and there is no evidence for a second thief. Are we certain it was the dog? No, nor do we need be, but we are probably correct, just as we will probably be correct that the car starts next time.
You're missing the obvious answer. Your atheism is blinding you to the truth.

The CCTV footage doesn't necessarily imply that there was no second thief; it's just as strong evidence that the second thief must have been invisible (and can get through locked doors).

God stole your hamburger.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think the term atheist is a loaded argument, and I don't believe in the truest sense of the word, any atheists exist.

By Arabic language, "god" is the highest thing valued. Exalted is the next level of valuing. Then seeing a being as great is the next level.

The Quran does talk about a people who believe nothing but time destroys humans, and so they would be atheist but the language of Quran does not allow there to be an atheist.

This is because even talks about those who their caprice is their god.

That is to say, even a nihilist who values pleasure - if he doesn't believe in value or meaning - than that would be their god.

Atheist definition is a loaded term about "gods". No one says are there people who "don't believe in air". Cause air is everywhere. Like wise, everyone values something with the highest amount of valuing. Even if an atheist values humans as the highest type of life and does not believe anything beyond that, then humans are gods per their view.

If a theist acts for showing off to people and cares what people think more than God or as much as God, he worships them per some hadiths and will be accounted as a polytheist on day of judgment.

They were better off picking a term such as "asupernaturalist" (without belief in the super natural) or something on those lines. But the term is loaded and complicates the definition of worship.
What a bs line of reasoning...

Yeah, sure if you are just going to be make stuff up and claim that whatever people consider whatever to be a god, then yeah everyone "believes in a god".
I believe pencils exist and sure you could dishonestly say that pencils are my god and then go on to say "therefor you believe gods exist".

But surely you can see the nonsense in doing such a thing.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Then the term becomes redundant and pretty ridiculous as well.

It is.
The only reason it exists is because there are so many theists.

I fully agree with you that it is a ridiculous term.
Usually we use terms / labels to described positive traits or beliefs that people hold. Atheist is one of the few words that does the opposite.
It tells you exactly NOTHING about a person, except what that person does NOT believe.

I fully agree it is a ridiculous term and it shouldn't even exist.
But yet here we are....




A newborn is incapable of holding any informed opinion on the subject so to class one as "atheist" is absurd.

I agree in principle. However, there is nothing in the definition of "atheist" or "theist" that states the individual must be capable of holding an informed opinion.
The strictest definitions state only "atheist = holds no belief in god" and "theist = holds belief in god".

Also, parents who baptize their babies refer to them as "christian babies" also.
Do you also complain about that?
 
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