What the...Egypt female circumcision

[Flankerl]

Or the removal of the glans all together, without anesthesia, and with the risk of any surgical stitching (sometimes with thorns) ripping apart during intercourse as an adult.

Then the two would be comparable.

Right you are.

There is a trend among the opponents of cultural circumcision who try to compare circumcision with all kinds of evil mutilation.

 

[Desert Snake]

Isn't that what you did in Post #53?

Yes. However as I'm not advocating a position on the argument, it bears no relavance as to whether I compare them or not...however, to people presenting arguments, they should compare the two, as otherwise a clear bias becomes noticeable.

 

[Songbird]

Those statistics are probably true. Quite a few African countries have a majority of females being circumcised at birth.

It's a myth that female circumcision destroys sexual functions such as the ability to orgasm and receive pleasure. In the countries where it's prevalent it's not seen any differently than male circumcision, because it isn't. Certain female circumcision is even less severe than the male equivalent.

In other words, I think Western prejudice is showing over this outrage.

Er...no.

Circumcision circumstances vary - sometimes much erectile tissue is left, sometimes not a lot is left, sometimes it grows back, and sometimes it doesn't.

In the many studies done on orgasm and sexual pleasure relating to female circumcision, there are some that state no difference - indeed, some report an increase - in pleasure.

But, in the words of my circumcised and widowed Nigerian friend, Happy (yes, Happy is her name), women in her village will rarely admit to sexual dissatisfaction because it's an enormous insult to men to do so. One simply is expected to defend tradition and custom. Even in secret, anonymous studies, Happy said she would only admit to being incredibly sexually satisfied.

Regardless of reality.

Haven't you found it interesting that according to studies, women in Nigeria have like a 90% rate of consistent orgasms and most of the world reports far less? Do they have a secret we don't know about, or are people lying?

 

[beenie]

They're both circumcision, one might be more extreme however it really all stems from religious practices, of course there are differences but you really have to understand that saying one is O.K. but the other is terrible just seems biased. Btw, there are Jewish people speaking out against circumcision also, it's not just secularist opinion.

FGM is not a religious practice. We've already established that.

OK, lets say one generation of girls who don't know the dangers and don't know the effects are tricked into it.

Why would these same girls who latter become mothers and find that it was all just manipulation, do the same thing to their own daughters? Brother DS has posted what is actually in support of what I'm saying with the experiences of his grandmother.

Are the men forcing them to do it? Debater Slayer even posted a source which says that Egypt has banned it.

Do we know for real what is happening? No, all we know is what someone (and most likely a woman) tells us about it and we believe their story because a PhD is ascribed along side the name.

Don't get me wrong sister, I respect your thoughts just as much as everyone else's and my view is not better than yours, it's actually the same. I just don't like it how we agree with something because it's what we like to hear and not because it is true.

I don't like the practice, but i'm not going to make a judgment on a people based on some numbers and the thoughts of someone which may not be true.

Let me ask a fair question to everyone. Has anyone here ever been personally told by a 'victim' of this practice that it is bad?

Yes, as a matter of fact I have...more than one in fact. What is described by these articles is pretty darn near the facts. I have the benefit of being involved with a women's health group, and the doctor I was shadowing showed me a few cases of FGM of women who came to the US under asylum. The photos she showed me and the interviews we had with them were unbelievably graphic. Without getting into to much of it, they were from a village where nearly every girl had this procedure done just before puberty. One of them had continual UTI's because the "hole" they left was too narrow and actually got infected as a child and damaged the ureter. That poor woman spend half of her life on antibiotics to cure her UTIs. We won't even mention the pain she experienced having a simple DIGITAL gynecological exam (they didn't even consider using a speculum. Let's just say you could hear her screams from across the clinic.

I'm afraid I know too much and have seen more suffering from this horrible practice than I care to remember. My aunt in Pakistan is a (retired) OB/GYN, and if you could hear the stories she told...how many girls she had to repair from botched circumcisions because the "young girl" would thrash about...how many times they were bleeding so badly they had to be rushed to the hospital for blood transfusions...some got HIV from it because back then blood wasn't screened. All this because some culture feels it's necessary to control a woman's sexual pleasure.

Please don't belittle the existence of this practice because you don't want to believe it's not as widespread as that evil western media says. Nothing beats personal experience.

 

[Desert Snake]

On my "Circumcision: for or against" (male circumcision only) thread, some of the responses from females were very nonchalant, go figure, right?...But there is obviously a female bias here, when something concerns them it becomes far more important.

 

[beenie]

On my "Circumcision: for or against" (male circumcision only) thread, some of the responses from females were very nonchalant, go figure, right?...But there is obviously a female bias here, when something concerns them it becomes far more important.

Incorrect. I'm not a fan of either practice, to be honest. I have said over and over again that I'm glad I didn't have to face this decision because I have all daughters. The religious element would have made it difficult for me to NOT circumcise a son, so I would have struggled with it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Right you are.

There is a trend among the opponents of cultural circumcision who try to compare circumcision with all kinds of evil mutilation.

Cultural relativism =/= acceptance of human rights abuse.

Footbinding was once an accepted practice. We do still see cultural body modifications like neck rings, lip plates, nose plugs, and scarification.

And we can compare and contrast where cultural rights include human rights and which don't. I think lip plates are odd, and distinctly patriarchal, but I do not think it's comparable in human rights abuse to FGM.

 

[Songbird]

On my "Circumcision: for or against" (male circumcision only) thread, some of the responses from females were very nonchalant, go figure, right?...But there is obviously a female bias here, when something concerns them it becomes far more important.

There's a female bias against mutilating female genitalia? :sarcastic

 

[MysticSang'ha]

On my "Circumcision: for or against" (male circumcision only) thread, some of the responses from females were very nonchalant, go figure, right?...But there is obviously a female bias here, when something concerns them it becomes far more important.

I answered this already in my previous post.

I don't think neck rings, lip plates, and scarification are remotely in the same boat as FGM, and all involve the procedures or modifications on women.

I think footbinding comes closer, however, and the impact on the lives of women with mutilated feet is horrific.

It seems to me that there's an attempt to trivialize FGM here.

 

[Willamena]

On my "Circumcision: for or against" (male circumcision only) thread, some of the responses from females were very nonchalant, go figure, right?

Probably because of the vast difference between the two practices.

 

[Desert Snake]

It seems to me that there's an attempt to trivialize FGM here.

Not from me, I think it's abhorrent.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

There's a female bias against mutilating female genitalia? :sarcastic

I see it as SKKF sees male circumcision as barbaric, and is upset by the lack of outrage over it the way there is an outrage over FGM, which suggests that we don't care about men and only care about women's rights.

Which I think is a ridiculously poor argument if that's the case.

 

[Desert Snake]

I see it as SKKF sees male circumcision as barbaric, and is upset by the lack of outrage over it the way there is an outrage over FGM, which suggests that we don't care about men and only care about women's rights.

Which I think is a ridiculously poor argument if that's the case.

Where did I say male circumcision was barbaric? I've actually stated that I personally don't care if people choose circumcision, my argument is merely about the way both circumcisions are approached by posters (mainly women) on this thread.

 

[YmirGF]

I see it as SKKF sees male circumcision as barbaric, and is upset by the lack of outrage over it the way there is an outrage over FGM, which suggests that we don't care about men and only care about women's rights.

Which I think is a ridiculously poor argument if that's the case.

That's my take on this too. To compare the two is to trivialize FGM. It is not a mere "cosmetic tweak".

 

[Debater Slayer]

Where did I say male circumcision was barbaric? I've actually stated that I personally don't care if people choose circumcision, my argument is merely about the way both circumcisions are approached by posters (mainly women) on this thread.

As a male, I think that female genital mutilation is much more adverse in effect than male circumcision is. I know of many healthy circumcised males -- I don't, however, know of a single circumcised female who hasn't suffered from physical or psychological trauma as a result of the procedure.

 

[Falvlun]

Not from me, I think it's abhorrent.

Then what's your point? Do you think that male and female circumcision is equally abhorrent?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should be circumcising our infant boys either, but what is done to fully conscious 8-12 year old girls, and the impact it has upon the function of the genitals, sexual, reproductive, and urinary, far outstrips the ethical implications of male circumcision.

It would be like saying spanking and beating your child are equally abhorrent. Yes, arguments can be made that spanking is a harmful and unnecessary parenting technique, but it would be ridiculous to claim that swatting your kid on his butt is just as bad as giving him a black eye.

EDIT:
And if you don't think they are equally abhorrent, then why are you perplexed that we are more outraged over the more abhorrent act-- female circumcision?

 

[Desert Snake]

Then what's your point?

That both circumcisions are going to be compared whether people like it or not.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Where did I say male circumcision was barbaric? I've actually stated that I personally don't care if people choose circumcision, my argument is merely about the way both circumcisions are approached by posters (mainly women) on this thread.

I have shown the differences repeatedly. Others have too. One carries with it at worst an increased risk of STD transmission. The other carries with it at worst an increased risk of septic shock and death.

I believe the differences between the two is obvious. I believe trying to "level the playing field" between the two in the outrage factor is intellectually dishonest.

Once again, how do you compare the two? What do you believe is the appropriate response to both?

 

[Songbird]

I see it as SKKF sees male circumcision as barbaric, and is upset by the lack of outrage over it the way there is an outrage over FGM, which suggests that we don't care about men and only care about women's rights.

Which I think is a ridiculously poor argument if that's the case.

I think you and I both mentioned various times in various threads that we care about men's rights, as mothers of sons, as lovers to our male companions, as humans in a world where granting rights to all is good for all.

Once someone experiences severe abuse, oppression, or subjugation, it's simply hard not to sympathize and identify with ANY other group who's experienced it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

As a male, I think that female genital mutilation is much more adverse in effect than male circumcision is. I know of many healthy circumcised males -- I don't, however, know of a single circumcised female who hasn't suffered from physical or psychological trauma as a result of the procedure.

You're such a Western man-hating feminist, DS.