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What theories underpin DEI ?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
At some point of time, you need to quote exactly what you find objectionable in "the document". Otherwise this discussion is meandering vaguely into the stygian chasm of meaninglessness.
which I did in post #36 - and those were just a few examples.

• Represent multiple cultures in textbooks and course materials.
As I've said, this would make sense for a few courses, topics like comparative sociology or comparative history. But this makes no sense for STEM-ish topics.

Interrogate systemic and institutional barriers. (for example a single mother may have unique problems that make it difficult to stay in the dorm system in many UG institutes. We assume a certain type of ppl only to be enrolled in colleges and our facilities are only geared to work for them).
The document I'm concerned with is focused on curriculum, not dorms. I'm sure that dorms can be problematical - but that's an entirely different topic.

Reframe practices and policies to serve as a co-learner and engage in a partnership. (Open learning framework)
• Actively care for the whole human being in syllabi/classroom policies.
• Democratize the student/ teacher relationship and empower students’ agency over their own learning. (It is well demonstrated that not everyone learns the same way and some may have skills that remian hidden in a static lecture and exam type environment that is relevant to the course subject....like more hands-on skills etc. So how do we create a flexible curriculum that makes it possible for students to use their own abilities correctly).

I'm sorry, but these ideas were debunked decades ago. I will acknowledge however that they have remarkable staying power - they go hand in hand with the "safe spaces" worldview. But from a pedagogy perspective, this simply isn't true. This approach does nothing to improve long term retention, it does however make students feel more warm and fuzzy in the moment.

Why on earth do you think it's a good idea to trivialize the crucial and extremely complex art and science of teaching??
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
**"Hierarchies that perpetuate barriers" means just that. It means listening to students, which doesn't imply that the professor doesn't have expertise. it means that professors should be open to student perspectives. Again, I am absolutely agog that you have a problem with any of this.
see the end of my post #41.

It's like you're just *looking* for problems and interpreting everything in the worst possible light.
Education is an extremely consequential topic. Of course we should cast a critical eye on how it's being done!!
**mod edit**
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hey @sayak83 - With sincerity - I do really appreciate your post #40 ! From my perspective it was by far the bravest and most honest post any of my opponents have made on this thread. thank you!!!
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Why on earth do you think it's a good idea to trivialize the crucial and extremely complex art and science of teaching??

@sayak83 is a university professor with extensive tenure. @Quintessence works directly with students and has a lot of experience and familiarity with DEI initiatives. @Orbit is another university professor with extensive tenure. They have all explained that their work and approach to DEI programs is not remotely similar to the description you have given of DEI.

I perused this thread, and every single question you have raised has been answered in detail and, from what I see, in good faith. From what I'm seeing, I think you're not pursuing answers; you're pursuing agreement with your framing of DEI and dismissing or misrepresenting (as in the above post) answers that don't align with the answers you're trying to get.

This thread has already been addressed and seems to me an exercise in futility at this point, especially given the remarkably unreasonable accusation that a university professor who is working on research thinks it's a "good idea to trivialize the art and science of teaching."
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
@sayak83 is a university professor with extensive tenure. @Quintessence works directly with students and has a lot of experience and familiarity with DEI initiatives. @Orbit is another university professor with extensive tenure. They have all explained that their work and approach to DEI programs is not remotely similar to the description you have given of DEI.

I perused this thread, and every single question you have raised has been answered in detail and, from what I see, in good faith. From what I'm seeing, I think you're not pursuing answers; you're pursuing agreement with your framing of DEI and dismissing or misrepresenting (as in the above post) answers that don't align with the answers you're trying to get.

This thread has already been addressed and seems to me an exercise in futility at this point, especially given the remarkably unreasonable accusation that a university professor who is working on research thinks it's a "good idea to trivialize the art and science of teaching."

My books, that teach complex STEM topics, have sold more than 3 million copies. This is in a world where most such books sell 5,000 copies. My books are used as text books in many community colleges and even a few universities, including UC Berkeley. The reason that my books have sold so well is because of superior, cutting-edge pedagogy. What @sayak83 said about pedagogy was debunked decades ago. The fact that @Quintessence and @Orbit take no exception to it indicates that they also are operating with debunked views.

As for good faith, meh. Most of my questions have remained unanswered.

And yes, I'll stand by my claim of trivialization. The document we're discussing criticizes the idea that professors should be the only experts on curriculum. What??? You're saying that community college students magically know more about pedagogy than their professors???
 
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Orbit

I'm a planet
My books, that teach complex STEM topics, have sold more than 3 million copies. This is in a world where most such books sell 5,000 copies. The reason that my books have sold so well is because of superior, cutting-edge pedagogy. What @sayak83 said about pedagogy was debunked decades ago. The fact that @Quintessence and @Orbit take no exception to it indicates that they also are operating with debunked views.

As for good faith, meh. Most of my questions have remained unanswered.

And yes, I'll stand by my claim of trivialization. The document we're discussing criticizes the idea that professors should be the only experts on curriculum. What??? You're saying that community college students magically know more about pedagogy than their professors???
So now we're moving the goalposts? The thread is no longer about what the DEI document says? Now it is about theories of pedagogy?

And you make the inaccurate and exaggerated claim that we as professors are saying that "college students magically know more about pedagogy than their professors?" No one said that. You are making a straw man, and misrepresenting my position entirely.

PS I thought you taught sports/coaching. I didn't know that counted as STEM.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So now we're moving the goalposts? The thread is no longer about what the DEI document says? Now it is about theories of pedagogy?

I don't think we're moving the goalposts at all. This DEI document is proposing many extreme adjustments to pedagogy - that's part of my concern with it.

And you make the inaccurate and exaggerated claim that we as professors are saying that "college students magically know more about pedagogy than their professors?" No one said that. You are making a straw man, and misrepresenting my position entirely.

You have said you see no issue with the document. Am I misquoting you?

PS I thought you taught sports/coaching. I didn't know that counted as STEM.

I taught STEM topics for decades. For the last few years I've shifted my focus from cognitive skill acquisition (e.g., teaching STEM topics), to motor skill acquisition (e.g., sports coaching). :)
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
I don't think we're moving the goalposts at all. This DEI document is proposing many extreme adjustments to pedagogy - that's part of my concern with it.



You have said you see no issue with the document. Am I misquoting you?



I taught STEM topics for decades. For the last few years I've shifted my focus from cognitive skill acquisition (e.g., teaching STEM topics), to motor skill acquisition (e.g., sports coaching). :)
I disagree that the form proposes "extreme adjustments to pedagogy". To say that giving students input into the education process is saying that professors have no expertise is an extreme interpretation on your part. To give an example of collaborative teaching, one of the best courses I ever constructed was put together using student focus groups who gave their input before the syllabus was constructed. Does this mean I have no expertise, or that I didn't use my expertise? Of course not. You are constructing an elaborate strawman that bears no resemblance to what actually happens.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I disagree that the form proposes "extreme adjustments to pedagogy". To say that giving students input into the education process is saying that professors have no expertise is an extreme interpretation on your part. To give an example of collaborative teaching, one of the best courses I ever constructed was put together using student focus groups who gave their input before the syllabus was constructed. Does this mean I have no expertise, or that I didn't use my expertise? Of course not. You are constructing an elaborate strawman that bears no resemblance to what actually happens.
No, I'm reading what THIS document says.

Now I suspect that you and @Quintessence and @sayak83 have experiences that I'd be far more aligned with.

But what you've all been saying about DEI in general, is at odds with this document.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I think it is at odds with YOUR idiosyncratic reading of the document.
The document is chock-a-block with word salad phrases. This is not by accident. This is meant to obscure.

Here are just a few of these phrases. If you look, you can find many more:

- equity minded (framework)
- culturally relevant curriculum
- responsive curriculum
- equity principles
- Eurocentric ideologies
- institutionalized racism
- leaning into the dissonance

(I gotta pause here to quote an entire sentence: "Although there may be challenging conversations in beginning transformative work, addressing the fear and leaning into the dissonance has the opportunity to become a cacophony of discord than can create rhapsody and beautiful new sounds and thoughts." Care to translate that one?)

- colonized mindset
- classified professionals
- the whole student
- diverse representations (in text books)
- culturally responsive practices
- watering up

It's also worth noting that one of the citations in the document is for material on Critical Race Theory?!
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
The document is chock-a-block with word salad phrases. This is not by accident. This is meant to obscure.

Here are just a few of these phrases. If you look, you can find many more:

- equity minded (framework)
- culturally relevant curriculum
- responsive curriculum
- equity principles
- Eurocentric ideologies
- institutionalized racism
- leaning into the dissonance

(I gotta pause here to quote an entire sentence: "Although there may be challenging conversations in beginning transformative work, addressing the fear and leaning into the dissonance has the opportunity to become a cacophony of discord than can create rhapsody and beautiful new sounds and thoughts." Care to translate that one?)

- colonized mindset
- classified professionals
- the whole student
- diverse representations (in text books)
- culturally responsive practices
- watering up

It's also worth noting that one of the citations in the document is for material on Critical Race Theory?!
Maybe I'm more accustomed to "edu-speak" than you are, but none of this bothers me. What's wrong with having an "equity-minded framework"? Shouldn't we meet students where they are, and give them the tools they need to succeed? Different student groups will benefit from different tools. Recognizing that and providing the appropriate tools is what is meant by "equity". For example, I have students who are hearing-impaired, so I provide captions on my lecture videos. That's an example of providing students with the tools they need to succeed, with an eye to equity. I fail to see the problem with this, nor with "equity principles".

As for the second item, "culturally relevant curriculum" and "Eurocentric ideologies". These are definitely things that an educator needs to be aware of. For example, my state has a (relatively) large Native American population, and we get Native students in classes in our department. If you're teaching History, and only approach the period of "Western Expansion" in U.S. history from an Anglo perspective, all the students will hear is an unbalanced account of American's victorious push westward that ignores what happened to the people getting conquered. History is messy, and we need to teach it in a way (for this example) that talks not only about westward expansion, but about smallpox-infected blankets, tribal boarding schools whose only purpose was to eradicate tribal languages and culture, what amounted to genocide, with the government paying for the scalps of Native Americans, and so on. That is culturally relevant curriculum, and the avoidance of Eurocentric ideologies. Again, I don't see a problem with it.

"Institutionalized racism" is something that I teach in my discipline, and I've explained this to you before. Here is an example, yet again, of what that means in practice. When teaching about why there is such a big, documented, wealth gap between white and black Americans in the U.S., you have to look at the institutions of society and how they were structured in the past, because that structure led to wealth outcomes that we see in the present. For example, after WWII, GIs came back, including black GIs, and tried to use their veteran's benefits to get ahead in society. White soldiers used their education benefits and entered college in record numbers. For black veterans, however, most white colleges did not accept black applicants, and the few all-black colleges that existed were full. Therefore many were unable to use their GI-Bill educational benefits to get a college education, and that had repercussions for their earning power in the years to come. This is because the institution of education was structured to produce different opportunities based on the color of your skin. That's institutional racism, and it's a real thing.

A similar thing happened in housing, with black veterans being technically eligible for the Veteran's Administration Mortgage Program, but being unable to use the benefit to move into a new house in a middle class neighborhood because "restrictive covenants" were the norm. Those are documents attached to the deed of your house saying that you can't sell it to a black person nor to a Jewish person. So even if they did manage to get the down payment for the house, and qualified for a VA mortgage, the benefit was useless because no one would sell a house to a black family. This is part of the reason why residential segregation still persists today; it has its roots in institutional processes that were helping white families get ahead as a group in society, while supressing avenues of mobility for black families. That's institutional racism. Again, I don't see a problem there.

We have recently at my university been sensitized to attend to "the whole student". What does that mean? On our campus, professors are increasingly putting things into their syllabi that address both academic and non-academic student needs, like the phone number for the counseling office in addition to the phone number for setting up tutoring; the location of the campus food bank for students who are food-insecure; and various crisis hotlines. Again, I fail to see the problem.

So what you have here is a list of buzzwords taken out of context that you object to. Maybe it's because you don't know what the words refer to, but I suspect you're either being disingenuous, or putting your own nefarious definitions to the terms. I don't see a problem with any of it. So there's some flowery language--so what? Those of us down in trenches deal with this stuff every day and are already implementing a lot of it. It's not particularly new.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
We have recently at my university been sensitized to attend to "the whole student". What does that mean? On our campus, professors are increasingly putting things into their syllabi that address both academic and non-academic student needs, like the phone number for the counseling office in addition to the phone number for setting up tutoring; the location of the campus food bank for students who are food-insecure; and various crisis hotlines. Again, I fail to see the problem.
To add, this is a pretty big one I've observed too. Holistic care isn't new to the university or college setting, but since the pandemic it's become even more of a priority as more data have come out indicating our young people are in crisis, mental health wise. My institution basically did an entire revamp of student care programs, leveraged pandemic relief funds to add new and much needed services, and also started issuing guidance like this to include care language in syllabi as a matter of course.

The bottom line @icehorse is, those of us "in the trenches" as Orbit puts it are doing what we do to assist student success. I don't know what kind of nefarious conspiracy you might think is going on behind the scenes. The only "nefarious" conspiracy would be university administration figuring out how to keep helping our students succeed in spite of this misguided political interference. The state I live in ordered a review of DEI under the mistaken belief that DEI is somehow bad. It's threatening scholarships for underrepresented students, initiatives that help close success gaps, cultural literacy for the student body, and causing stress for our multicultural and LGBTQ+ students at a time where they absolutely do NOT need more stressors. Basically, the current political leadership just hates education but I'll stop there before I start an irate rant...
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
First off, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

If you're teaching History, and only approach the period of "Western Expansion" in U.S. history from an Anglo perspective, all the students will hear is an unbalanced account of American's victorious push westward that ignores what happened to the people getting conquered. History is messy, and we need to teach it in a way (for this example) that talks not only about westward expansion, but about smallpox-infected blankets, tribal boarding schools whose only purpose was to eradicate tribal languages and culture, what amounted to genocide, with the government paying for the scalps of Native Americans, and so on. That is culturally relevant curriculum, and the avoidance of Eurocentric ideologies. Again, I don't see a problem with it

As I've mentioned several times, this makes sense in a historyor sociology class. Not so much in a STEM class. With that said, the document we're discussing commits what I might call a "sin of omission", although I would strongly suspect this sin of omission goes way past just this document, and persists in many DEI initiatives. The omission is that - at one time or another - almost every culture has been guilty of colonialism. In your case, Native American nations historically colonized each other back and forth for centuries. Is that also in the curriculum? How about Asian, African, or other Indigenous colonialism that has occured throughout history? If we take the document as face value, the only colonialism the DEI folks are worried about is the European kind.

A similar thing happened in housing, with black veterans being technically eligible for the Veteran's Administration Mortgage Program, but being unable to use the benefit to move into a new house in a middle class neighborhood because "restrictive covenants" were the norm. Those are documents attached to the deed of your house saying that you can't sell it to a black person nor to a Jewish person. So even if they did manage to get the down payment for the house, and qualified for a VA mortgage, the benefit was useless because no one would sell a house to a black family. This is part of the reason why residential segregation still persists today; it has its roots in institutional processes that were helping white families get ahead as a group in society, while supressing avenues of mobility for black families. That's institutional racism. Again, I don't see a problem there.

I understand and agree that these are all issues that we need to address. But in a calculus class?

So what you have here is a list of buzzwords taken out of context that you object to. Maybe it's because you don't know what the words refer to, but I suspect you're either being disingenuous, or putting your own nefarious definitions to the terms.

What do you know about intersectionality theory?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
To add, this is a pretty big one I've observed too. Holistic care isn't new to the university or college setting, but since the pandemic it's become even more of a priority as more data have come out indicating our young people are in crisis, mental health wise. My institution basically did an entire revamp of student care programs, leveraged pandemic relief funds to add new and much needed services, and also started issuing guidance like this to include care language in syllabi as a matter of course.

Can we all agree that we're all educators?

Now, I understand and agree with what you're saying above. This is not news to me.

But I am SPECIFICALLY focusing on curriculum and pedagogy. I am not making any claims or criticism of all the other aspects of helping students. The document I'm criticizing is about curriculum. Not other services.

The bottom line @icehorse is, those of us "in the trenches" as Orbit puts it are doing what we do to assist student success. I don't know what kind of nefarious conspiracy you might think is going on behind the scenes. The only "nefarious" conspiracy would be university administration figuring out how to keep helping our students succeed in spite of this misguided political interference. The state I live in ordered a review of DEI under the mistaken belief that DEI is somehow bad. It's threatening scholarships for underrepresented students, initiatives that help close success gaps, cultural literacy for the student body, and causing stress for our multicultural and LGBTQ+ students at a time where they absolutely do NOT need more stressors. Basically, the current political leadership just hates education but I'll stop there before I start an irate rant...

Again. There are many aspects to higher education. But this OP concerns a specific DEI document in the context of teaching. I'm not talking about housing or scholarships or all that other important stuff.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
My books, that teach complex STEM topics, have sold more than 3 million copies. This is in a world where most such books sell 5,000 copies. My books are used as text books in many community colleges and even a few universities, including UC Berkeley. The reason that my books have sold so well is because of superior, cutting-edge pedagogy. What @sayak83 said about pedagogy was debunked decades ago. The fact that @Quintessence and @Orbit take no exception to it indicates that they also are operating with debunked views.

As for good faith, meh. Most of my questions have remained unanswered.

And yes, I'll stand by my claim of trivialization. The document we're discussing criticizes the idea that professors should be the only experts on curriculum. What??? You're saying that community college students magically know more about pedagogy than their professors???
What books?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I'd be more than happy to take this off line and bet you huge amounts of money, maybe $10,000 ?
I'm still just as sure as I was. If you wrote anything it's self published, not highly rated, amd not widely read. You get too many basic terms and concepts wrong and ask "what's that mean" like someone who's put too much stock in Frued. That or you just don't know how to pick up and use a dictionary to explain you frequent use of "what does that mean."
 
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