What Trinitarian churches teach about the Trinity

[Muffled]

A confusion may be Sabellianism is the belief that instead of being three persons, these are actually three ''modes'' or masks of the same God. Sabellianism is a type of Modalism, which is a group of heresies that all refer to different aspects of God instead of different persons.

Although Sabellianism is flawed the modal concept is correct. A three person God is a three god blasphemy. However each mode has a different personal aspect which can be viewed as a type of person, in reality three different types of person.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

All three are One God, part of the godhead.

Hi Amazing grace

I deeply respect your belief although I think differently.
Let me comment respectfully about what this statement of yours.

God cannot be part of something, because then that something would be bigger, or more powerful, or more knowledgeable than God.
That's why God cannot be "part" of a "godhead". If Jesus can be a "part" of a "godhead", then Jesus is not God.

Using the analogy of "head", please consider than, when Paul is presenting the line of authority in marriage, he says that man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of man, and God is the "head of Christ". In all this chain of authority, each component continues to be a different being.
Here, Paul doesn't make Christ part of the "godhead", but places God as the head of Christ.

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

 

[learner Daniel]

Isn't that what you are saying here:

Brother, check out the outline I posted.
All three are One God, part of the godhead.
Persons: They are separate persons based on roles.

To play a role - isn't one like an actor in a play changing masks? role: n. an actor's part in a play, movie, etc.: the function assumed or part played by a person or thing in a particular situation: "she greeted us all in her various roles of mother, friend, and daughter" · "religion plays a vital role in society"

In regard to the example above - If a person is a man, a father and a son is that what you consider "one person as 3 separate persons"?

Yes, with a hug

 

[learner Daniel]

Hi Amazing grace

I deeply respect your belief although I think differently.
Let me comment respectfully about what this statement of yours.

God cannot be part of something, because then that something would be bigger, or more powerful, or more knowledgeable than God.
That's why God cannot be "part" of a "godhead". If Jesus can be a "part" of a "godhead", then Jesus is not God.

Using the analogy of "head", please consider than, when Paul is presenting the line of authority in marriage, he says that man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of man, and God is the "head of Christ". In all this chain of authority, each component continues to be a different being.
Here, Paul doesn't make Christ part of the "godhead", but places God as the head of Christ.

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

god·head
/ˈɡädˌhed/
https://www.google.com/search?sca_e...2ahUKEwih5e2y4ayHAxUTv4kEHXpGC34Q3eEDegQIHxAM
noun

1. 
   
2. 
   
3. 1.
   God.
4. 
   
5. What is the literal meaning of Godhead?
   : the Deity : God. especially : God as considered by Christians to be made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
6. 
   
7. Definition of THE GODHEAD
8. 
   
9. 
   

10. Colossians 2
    
    King James Version
    
    ​

    2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
    2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
    3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
    5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
    6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
    7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
    9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
    18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
    19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
    20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
11. 
    
    
    

    Romans 1:19-21
    
    King James Version
    
    ​

    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[learner Daniel]

Colossians 2​

<< Previous Verse

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9​	For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

For Further Reading...

C o m m e n t a r y​

The Apostle Paul has just cautioned the Colossian believers not to be taken captive by the philosophies and traditions of men which are not grounded in Christ (v. 18). There are various views about the so-called "Colossian Heresy" against which Paul was writing. It is possible that there was a specific heresy (so Calvin, Dibelius, Moule, etc.) or Paul may have been writing more generally (so Hooker). What is clear is that Paul is unequivocally asserting Christ's supremacy over whatever teachings might take the Colossians captive - teachings not grounded in Christ. In verse 9, Paul gives the first of two reasons why Christ is superior to any human philosophy or tradition (verse 10a contains the second): "For" (Greek hoti with a causal sense: "because") in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells bodily. Christ is superior to the teachings of men and the elemental "powers" of the universe because in His incarnation, every aspect of the nature of the true God - all His attributes and power - found in Christ's body a congenial and permanent home. This verse - perhaps more than any other verse in Paul's writing - teaches that Christ was God in the flesh. The word translated "Deity" signifies the "essence of being God" - what makes God, God (see Grammatical Analysis, below). And it was not a mere quality or limited sub-set of attributes - for Paul tells us that "all the fullness" of Deity dwelled in Christ. And this fullness did not merely sojourn for a time in Christ's consciousness, but rather "dwelled" there (Greek katoikeo: "to take up permanent residence"). It is a timeless present tense verb (Harris, Colossians, p. 98) - "continues to live." And this dwelling was "bodily," in Christ's physical body. This points to the incarnation, surely, but also to the resurrected Christ as well, who is now our mediator, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). As Robertson puts it: "The fullness of the Godhead ... dwells �in the once mortal, now glorified body of Christ'" (RWP).​

G r a m m a t i c a l A n a l y s i s​

`oti en autw katoikei pan to plhrwma thV qeothtoV swmatikwV hOTI EN AUT� KATOIKEI PAN TO PL�R�MA T�S THEOT�TOS S�MATIK�S For in him dwells all the fullness of the Deity bodily KATOIKE� (2730) Live, dwell, reside, settle (down) (BAGD, Thayer) More technically used, the verb refers to the permanent "residents" of a town or village, as distinguished from those "dwelling as strangers" or "sojourners" (Moulton & Milligan) Verb Indicative Present Active (Friberg) The present indicative indicates an action occurring while the speaker is speaking. PAS (3956) The whole, all (the) (BAGD, Thayer) PL�R�MA (4138) Sum total, fulness, even (super)abundance (BAGD) Fulness, abundance (Thayer) The pl�r�ma statements in Colossians present the full unity of the person and work of God and Christ, yet in such as way that neither the distinctness of person nor monotheism is imperiled. The differences between Ephesians and Colossians show that pl�r�ma is not here a technical term, and the fact that pl�r�s or pl�ro� may be used instead supports this conclusion. In part the pl�r�ma sayings relate to Christ's headship of the church. From him as the bearer of the divine fullness (col. 1:18ff) vital powers flow into the church, so that he may be said to fill it (TDNT). THEOTES (2320) Deity, divinity, used as an abstract noun for qeoV (BAGD) Deity, i.e., the state of being God, Godhead: Col 2:9...Syn. qeothV, qeiothV: qeot. deity differs from qeiot. divinity as essence differs from quality or attribute (Thayer) Divinity ... The one God, to whom all deity belongs, has given this fullness of deity to the incarnate Christ. (TDNT) Deity, divine nature, divine being...'all the fullness of divine nature' Col 2:9...The expression 'divine nature' may be rendered in a number of languages as 'just what God is like' or 'how God is' or 'what God is' (Louw & Nida). Louw & Nida do not semantically distinguish theotes, theiotes, and theios, treating them each as synonymous with "diving nature" as they define it here. S�MATIK�S (4985) Bodily, corporeally ... Col 2:9 (prob. to be understood fr. 2:17 [cf. swma 4] as=in reality, not symbolically) (BAGD) Bodily, corporeally ... yet denoting his exalted and spiritual body, visible only to the inhabitants of heaven, Col 2:9, where see Meyer [Bp. Lightft.] (Thayer) Bodily-wise, corporeally, in concrete actuality (Moulton & Milligan) The s�matik�s in this statement denotes the corporeality in which God encounters us in our world, i.e., the real humanity of Jesus, not a humanity that is a mere cloak for deity (TDNT). Pertaining to a physical body ... 'In him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily' or 'in physical form' Col 2:9. It is also possible to interpret s�matik�s in Col 2:9 as meaning 'in reality,' that is to say 'not symbolically' (Louw & Nida)

 

[amazing grace]

Hi Amazing grace

I deeply respect your belief although I think differently.
Let me comment respectfully about what this statement of yours.

God cannot be part of something, because then that something would be bigger, or more powerful, or more knowledgeable than God.
That's why God cannot be "part" of a "godhead". If Jesus can be a "part" of a "godhead", then Jesus is not God.

Using the analogy of "head", please consider than, when Paul is presenting the line of authority in marriage, he says that man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of man, and God is the "head of Christ". In all this chain of authority, each component continues to be a different being.
Here, Paul doesn't make Christ part of the "godhead", but places God as the head of Christ.

But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

What you responded to in my post was a quote from the following post by learner Daniel:

Brother, check out the outline I posted.
All three are One God, part of the godhead.
Persons: They are separate persons based on roles.

I do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine but was engaging learner Daniel in a discussion concerning that belief. I am a Biblical Unitarian and believe that there is ONE God (absolute ONE God) and that God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

 

[Betho_br]

Exodus 21:6

הָ֣אֱלֹהִ֔ים hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm,

the judges

κριτήριον the judgment seat τοῦ θεοῦ of God Exodus 21:6 LXX

1 Samuel 2:25

• ἐὰν (if)
• ἁμαρτάνων (sinning)
• ἁμάρτῃ (he sins)
• ἀνὴρ (a man)
• εἰς (against)
• ἄνδρα (a man)
• καὶ (and)
• προσεύξονται (they will pray)
• ὑπὲρ (on behalf of)
• αὐτοῦ (him)
• πρὸς (to)
• κύριον (the Lord) 'ĕ·lō·hîm,אֱלֹהִ֔ים
• καὶ (and)
• ἐὰν (if)
• τῷ (to the)
• κυρίῳ (Lord) Yah·weh לַֽיהוָה֙
• ἁμάρτῃ (he sins)
• τίς (who)
• προσεύξεται (will pray)
• ὑπὲρ (on behalf of)
• αὐτοῦ (him)
• καὶ (and)
• οὐκ (not)
• ἤκουον (they listened)
• τῆς (to the)
• φωνῆς (voice)
• τοῦ (of the)
• πατρὸς (father)
• αὐτῶν (their)
• ὅτι (because)
• βουλόμενος (wishing)
• ἐβούλετο (desired)
• κύριος (the Lord)
• διαφθεῖραι (to destroy)
• αὐτούς (them)

When a man sins against another man, the judges will judge him; but when a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him? But they did not listen to the voice of their father, because the Lord wanted to kill them. 1 Sa 2:25 LXX

The Hellenists used the same word, κύριον and κυρίῳ, for both Elohim (a divinized human judge) and YHWH (God, the Father). Therefore, those who read in Greek (Septuagint) would not understand the difference. As a result, when the circumcised churches of Judea were weakened by the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the Hellenists had more influence in interpreting the acts of Jesus. This interpretation is mentioned in Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan: a Christ worshipped/revered as a god/God. The Greek term "theos" in the Christian Bible ("New Testament") can very well be interpreted as Elohim (divinized judge), and Adonai might refer to this rather than exclusively to the God YHWH. The question is, which ancient writings (manuscripts) preserved these nuances?

 

[Betho_br]

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
"FIDEI DEPOSITUM"
For the publication of the
Catechism of the Catholic Church
written after the Second Vatican Council
JOHN PAUL II, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR PERPETUAL MEMORY​

III. The Holy Trinity in the doctrine of faith
THE FORMATION OF THE TRINITARIAN DOGMA
249. The revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the root of the Church's living faith since its origins, especially through Baptism. It finds expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis, and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, as in the following greeting, echoed in the Eucharistic liturgy: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all" (2 Cor 13:13).

189. The first "profession of faith" is made at the time of Baptism. The "creed" is initially the baptismal creed. Since Baptism is given "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19), the truths of faith professed at Baptism are articulated in reference to the three persons of the Holy Trinity. (Related paragraphs: 1237, 232)

232. Christians are baptized "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Mt 28:19). Before this, they respond "I believe" to the triple question that requires them to confess their faith in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: "Fides omnium christianorum in Trinitate consistit - The faith of all Christians consists in the Trinity" (Related paragraphs: 189, 1223)

THE BAPTISM OF CHRIST
1223. All the prefigurations of the Old Covenant find their fulfillment in Christ Jesus. He begins his public life after being baptized by John in the Jordan, and after his resurrection he gives this mission to his apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

******************************************************************************************************************************​

1) The Dogma of the Trinity is a philosophical development of the Trinitarian formulas (2 Cor 13:13, etc., including verses with variants), which is well documented in the Apostolic Fathers.

2) John 1:1, John 20:28, Titus 2:13. The Greek term "theos" here can also refer specifically to an Elohim: Christological (Messiah) and Lord (Adonai), terms always used for men.

(Psalm 82:6 Hebrew)
אניH I אמרתי have said, אלהים Ye gods; אתם of you ובני children עליון of the most High. כלכם׃ and all

(Psalm 82:6 Greek) εγω (I) ειπα (said) θεοι (gods) εστε (you are) και (and) υιοι (sons) υψιστου (of the Most High) παντες (all)

אלהים Ye gods = θεοι (gods) > (Theos=Elohim)= According to the sacred scriptures (It is written!): Jesus is the divine Logos (The Word), The Christ (The Messiah), an Elohim (A human and divinized judge)

3) Jesus within the Father." Basil the Great was the first to see this relationship! In John 14:10;20. I revived this argument decades ago on the internet. The question is whether this relationship is merely a mission as Christological Elohim or is it an eternal relationship? Note the prepositions in the Greek-Septuagint and also in the Hebrew: 2 Samuel 19:8 LXX, 1 Kings 1:17,30; 2:30, Psalms 17:30 LXX, 18:29 HEB; 44:9 HEB, 55:5 LLX, 56:5 HEB; 107:14 LXX, 108:13 HEB; Hosea 1:7; Habakkuk 3:18, Zechariah 12:5 13 Romans 11:7.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What you responded to in my post was a quote from the following post by learner Daniel:

I do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine but was engaging learner Daniel in a discussion concerning that belief. I am a Biblical Unitarian and believe that there is ONE God (absolute ONE God) and that God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Oh, my apologies for having confused your post.
Have a pleasant rest of your day.