What verifiable evidence is there that god exists?

[oldbadger]

Quantum mechanics complicates things, as does general relativity when we talk about the big bang. Even if they didn't, we wouldn't know if it applied to the universe as a whole, not least because time is part of the universe.

OK......... so we don't know.

I did, actually, and I still don't know - and neither does anybody else.

Exactly...... nobody knows how this all started.

There is no shortage of hypotheses and I could post a few if you want. I was rather taken with Conformal Cyclic Cosmology as proposed by Roger Penrose but that's just because it's a quirky and original take on the problem.

The fact, the clear fact that 'We don't know' is the answer at this time.

It seems that you have the academic mindset to be clear in your replies. I am a lay-person but can perceive that your opinion is correct. 'We don't know'

That's very important in a debate titled 'What verifiable evidence is there that god exists?'.......because the answer comes sailing back......... there is no verifiable evidence either way...... there cannot be a Yes or a No at this time.

And this places Atheism in to a similar mindset to Theism in that both sides have a Belief, one way or t'other. I din't notice all of your member details but would I be correct if I guess that you are an Agnostic? It seems that True Science is Agnostic about whether or not there is a God. ??

 

[oldbadger]

Anything spouted by the JW bunch is not worth considering for one second.

The above sent to another.

I have been looking forward to a reply from you about your opinion and any ideas about the initiation of our Universe, and whether you think that anything might lie beyond?

My point is, do you think that there is/was a reason or cause for such an initiation? It's a kind of YES, NO, DON'T KNOW kind of choice, I guess?

Thankyou.

 

[ratiocinator]

That's very important in a debate titled 'What verifiable evidence is there that god exists?'.......because the answer comes sailing back......... there is no verifiable evidence either way...... there cannot be a Yes or a No at this time.

You are neglecting the burden of proof, it's up to the person who is making the claim to provide some evidence or reasoning.

All the different versions of the sorts of gods that create the universe are claims of an 'explanation' of the universe, as are all the scientific hypotheses. It's up to the proponents of each claim to give us reasons to take their ideas seriously.

The scientific proposals all tend to be extrapolation of what we know, so they have that in their favour.

And this places Atheism in to a similar mindset to Theism in that both sides have a Belief, one way or t'other. I din't notice all of your member details but would I be correct if I guess that you are an Agnostic? It seems that True Science is Agnostic about whether or not there is a God. ??

Not really, no. If I claim (say) that there is an invisible dragon in my garden, then you have no verifiable evidence either way but would you take my claim seriously because of that?

I'm an atheist - or an agnostic atheist as some people call it (atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge). Just like my invisible dragon, I can't prove there are no gods, so technically I can't claim to know. On the other hand, I have no belief in any gods because I have yet to see a good reason to take any of the claims about them seriously.

Science has nothing to say about gods unless a particular god is supposed to interact with the universe is some falsifiable or predicable way. So we can rule out the creationist gods that magicked the universe into existence 6000 ya because they are falsified by copious scientific evidence.

 

[JJ50]

The evidence some people claim to have for the existence of god is as credible and verifiable as the evidence I have for the fairies at the bottom of my garden.

 

[WalterTrull]

So what is your point?

Uhmm.. no objects. Apparent reality subjective to singular mentality. Humans in the seeming mix but actually only one.

 

[atanu]

If god really exists why does it hide away, instead of revealing itself to all humanity in a way that is indisputable?

Are all scientific laws etc. indisputably clear to everyone?

 

[ratiocinator]

If god really exists why does it hide away, instead of revealing itself to all humanity in a way that is indisputable?

Are all scientific laws etc. indisputably clear to everyone?

What's that got to do with the question?

 

[JJ50]

The above sent to another.

I have been looking forward to a reply from you about your opinion and any ideas about the initiation of our Universe, and whether you think that anything might lie beyond?

My point is, do you think that there is/was a reason or cause for such an initiation? It's a kind of YES, NO, DON'T KNOW kind of choice, I guess?

Thankyou.

I don't know, but would be surprised if our universe is the only one which exists. I hope science will be able come up with the answer one day.

 

[oldbadger]

You are neglecting the burden of proof, it's up to the person who is making the claim to provide some evidence or reasoning.

Hold on there............ our Universe just happened, and we don't know why. I can show that it's here, but neither you nor I know how, nor why.

All the different versions of the sorts of gods that create the universe are claims of an 'explanation' of the universe, as are all the scientific hypotheses. It's up to the proponents of each claim to give us reasons to take their ideas seriously.

Well you would need to tell them that.
I am interested in the 'Reason for our universe's existence'
The Reason........ or The Cause.

The scientific proposals all tend to be extrapolation of what we know, so they have that in their favour.

We are both quite clear that Science does not know, so Science is a neutral and objective waiter for any knowledge about..... 'What is the Cause, or Reason'.

Not really, no. If I claim (say) that there is an invisible dragon in my garden, then you have no verifiable evidence either way but would you take my claim seriously because of that?

Very poor analogy. There is a Universe all around us, no dragon analogy required.
And we don't know how or why.

I'm an atheist - or an agnostic atheist as some people call it (atheism is about belief, agnosticism is about knowledge). Just like my invisible dragon, I can't prove there are no gods, so technically I can't claim to know. On the other hand, I have no belief in any gods because I have yet to see a good reason to take any of the claims about them seriously.

I think that true Science, like you, leans towards the agnostic mindset.
I'm interested in all claims at present, including Big-Bang, Big-Whoosh, Big-Bounce, etc....... and listen to Deists and Theists as well.

Science has nothing to say about gods unless a particular god is supposed to interact with the universe is some falsifiable or predicable way. So we can rule out the creationist gods that magicked the universe into existence 6000 ya because they are falsified by copious scientific evidence.

Science has nothing to say (for sure) about the Cause or Reason.

 

[Milton Platt]

"What verifiable evidence is there that god exists?"
You and me.

how does that demonstrate a god exists?

 

[Milton Platt]

If you view god as a product of culture and history his presence is everywhere.

that would equate to what the OP said...god is a human invention.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't know, but would be surprised if our universe is the only one which exists. I hope science will be able come up with the answer one day.

I agree with that.
I wouldn't be surprised if there are billions of them.

I also hope that Science will discover all, but until then, Science does not know, nor does it know the reason for or cause of our Universe, and thus our existence.

And so, thus far, the score is:-
Theists 0
Deists 0
Atheists 0
Adeists 0

Only Agnosticism can scrape a point for honesty = 1

 

[ratiocinator]

Hold on there............ our Universe just happened, and we don't know why. I can show that it's here, but neither you nor I know how, nor why.

No, but somebody claiming that there is a god is proposing a reason, so the question is: why should I take that proposal seriously?

We are both quite clear that Science does not know, so Science is a neutral and objective waiter for any knowledge about..... 'What is the Cause, or Reason'.

Science doesn't know, but if a proposal is based on an extrapolation of what science does know, then that is one reason to take it seriously - one that god proposals don't have.

Very poor analogy. There is a Universe all around us, no dragon analogy required.
And we don't know how or why.

You're missing the point, which is that I have no reason to consider any gods as a cause of the universe, just as you have no reason to consider the invisible dragon.

Say I suggest that a tribe of dragons, in some meta-reality, made the universe because they were bored one day and then forgot about it. Or perhaps it was created by the equivalent of a spotty teenager, called Eric, who had a new physics set for his birthday.

Without an actual reason to take the ideas seriously, they're just storytelling or guessing.

...... and listen to Deists and Theists as well.

Why?

 

[InChrist]

I think there is enough proof for the God revealed in the biblical scriptures for anyone sincerely looking for it...

"Of course, the problem may not be that God isn't making Himself known, but that mankind fails to recognize Him when He does so. Even the natural world suggests such a probability. For example, although the entire universe is composed of energy, mankind was for thousands of years unaware of its existence—not because energy didn't manifest itself and its power, but in spite of that fact.


Could it not be the same way with the God who created energy? Surely He would be far more mysterious than anything He made—and thus even more difficult to comprehend. God is not an impersonal force like energy. He must be a personal Being with emotion, intellect and will, or He could not have created us.


The intricately organized universe God made adequately reveals His infinite intelligence and power. But it is something else for God to manifest His love and His will for mankind. To do so, He would have to make Himself known personally in such a way that a finite man would realize beyond a shadow of doubt that the infinite God was revealing Himself. How could He do so?"


"Significantly, the God of the Bible identifies Himself as the One who accurately foretells the future and makes certain that it happens as He said it would. In fact, God points to prophecy as the irrefutable evidence of His existence and the authenticity of His Word: "For I am God, and there is none else. ...Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, my counsel shall stand..." (Isa:46:9-10)."

"God has, in fact, given a "sign" to the entire world for all generations. That sign is the land and people of Israel. God refers to "Israel my glory" (Isa:46:13) and says of her, "in whom I will be glorified" (Isa:49:3). How would this come about? By God's specific dealings with Israel before a watching world, after having prophesied precisely what would happen (2 Chr:7:20). Referring to the rescue of Israel at Armageddon, the subject of many Old Testament prophecies, Ezekiel:38:23 declares, "Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord."

The Bible declares that the prophecies it provides concerning Israel supply the irrefutable evidence for God's existence—and for the fact that He has a purpose for mankind. History is not merely happenstance. It is going somewhere. There is a plan. Biblical prophecies declare it irrefutably."


The God of Prophecy

 

[ratiocinator]

I think there is enough proof for the God revealed in the biblical scriptures for anyone sincerely looking for it...

I often wonder, when I see statements like this, if the people making them have actually read the bible. That isn't to be taken literally (!). What I mean is: have you read it to see what it says, or just to confirm what you already "know"?

I read the bible (before I was certain I was an atheist) and it's an incoherent, and often self-contradictory, mess, that provides no overall message at all - let alone anything resembling "proof".

...although the entire universe is composed of energy...

No, it isn't.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

that would equate to what the OP said...god is a human invention.

That's a raw way to put it, but yes. That's how we learned to live, survival, make sense out of things both physical (when to farm) and abstract (eventually the stories of the gods of the constellations help diagnosis illnesses).

Up until humanism came and it started to heaven out. I don't know about counties outside european though.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Exactly...... nobody knows how this all started

Well there are the Messengers who give themselves as the greatest proof. They also say they are why it all started. That they came and looked like you and I was most likely why the Wow moment is hidden from us all.

This is that passage, which is from God to answer this OP question about proof;

"....Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person..."

By the way, we know that there is no way the mind can fathom the extent of creation. All we can know is but one lamp of another 100,000,000 other lamps.

All planets have creatures. Some have beings like us that can also know and love God. Baha'u'llah is a universal Manifestation, not restricted to earth.

The future will be mind blowing for us that live in this age with such dull minds. Wish I had the vision of the whole in this matrix, but most likely will leave this matrix before those eyes develop.

Great hey Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

No, but somebody claiming that there is a god is proposing a reason, so the question is: why should I take that proposal seriously?

Because it is a proposed cause or reason.
You yourself have already accepted that there is a cause or reason, and neither you or I have certitude for or against a God-Reason.

Science doesn't know, but if a proposal is based on an extrapolation of what science does know, then that is one reason to take it seriously - one that god proposals don't have.

Because Science knows about knowledge you think that Science can know about Godlessness? Illogical.

You're missing the point, which is that I have no reason to consider any gods as a cause of the universe, just as you have no reason to consider the invisible dragon.

Then don't consider them, but at least you know that actually you do not know, one way or t'other.

Say I suggest that a tribe of dragons, in some meta-reality, made the universe because they were bored one day and then forgot about it. Or perhaps it was created by the equivalent of a spotty teenager, called Eric, who had a new physics set for his birthday.

I don't know how the Universe was caused, or what lies beyond it.
Agnosticism = 1 (for honesty)
Theism = 0
Deism = 0
Atheism = 0
Adeism = 0

Without an actual reason to take the ideas seriously, they're just storytelling or guessing.

Without an actual reason to take ANY ideas seriously, they're just guessing.
But that's OK for Theists because Theism is mostly all about faith.

Why?

Well you are listening to Deists and Theists, aren't you? You're on RF and communicating with them continually!

And don't forget that many Deists see themselves as Atheists..... yes?
As a Deist I am an Atheist and so, sadly, I get 0 marks so far as well as any others.
WE DO NOT KNOW!

 

[oldbadger]

.........................Baha'u'llah is a universal Manifestation, not restricted to earth................

Please forgive me for drawing the above to the attentions of @Vinayaka and @CG Didymus .
I cannot beging to guess how they will respond to that, but my response is this:-
Bahauallah didn't even make it as a Persian manifestation, although as a Deist I do accept that Bahauallah was a tiny tiny portion of God, just as you, I, the atoms in our home and my wife's little dachshunds are .......

 

[TransmutingSoul]

WE DO NOT KNOW!

I see we choose not to pursue spiritual evidence. I see we want all our material senses to be satisfied.

Regards Tony