Muffled
Jesus in me
The sun god was not around when the first sin was committed. Of course gods always construe opposition to them as sin. It just wasn't the first time.
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What was the first sin ever committed ?
- Thread starter Tinkerpeach
- Start date
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the first sin did not take place in the garden but it would have been the first sin of the Adamic race.
I had no intention of conveying that impression. The God in the Garden story is a beginner, an amateur. Naively, [he] doesn't want A&E to eat from the Knowledge Tree because it will give them a power that [he] fears will make them [his] rivals ─ but [he] does nothing to restrict access. (Fortunately for infants, most parents aren't that stupid.)
If [he]'s not smart enough to remove or fence the Knowledge Tree, why would you think [he] was smart enough to remove or fence the Tree of Life?
God had made it impossible for them to sin. [He] had denied them knowledge of good and evil (and, as I mentioned above, not for admirable reasons). Therefore at the time Eve ate the fruit, it was impossible for her to form an intention to do wrong, and therefore it was impossible for her to sin. Likewise at the time Adam ate the fruit, it was impossible for him to form an intention to do wrong, and therefore it was impossible for him to sin.
And as I've pointed out to you constantly, sin is NEVER mentioned in the Garden story. Not one single time. No sin is alleged against Eve or Adam at any time in the story.
Instead, consistently with Ezekiel 18, sin remains personal, and can't be inherited.
Nowhere in the Tanakh does it mention sin in connection with the Garden story.
Nowhere in the NT does Jesus mention it.
Nothing happens till Paul drops a one-liner or two about it, and as I told you previously, as I understand it, the notion of the Fall was developed in the course of midrash practices among the Jews of Alexandria around the end of the second century BCE; in any event it was not a notion original to Paul.
Nor was the notion itself part of Christianity till Augustine of Hippo fell in love with it around 400 CE. No doubt he realized that such a snake-oil salesman's technique would be good for selling his product, but anyway.
And God had denied Adam and Eve the knowledge of right and wrong, making the point irrelevant.
They didn't rebel. Eve considered the words of the snake (all of which were true) and tried the fruit.
She thus acquired knowledge of right and wrong for the first time, and for the enduring benefit of the human race.
It was God who ─ ahm ─ misspoke. Just as the snake said, they didn't die the same day they ate the fruit.
I'm not the author of the tale. But certainly, not knowing right or wrong, they were incapable of moral judgment, yes. And whose fault was that? God's ─ the tale is unambiguous.
It's certainly pure fiction, and I'd say it was of a folktale kind, yes.
The second is in Ezekiel 28.11-19.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
Apparently asking questions was the first sin.
I believe the concept os "When was the first 'sin.?' makes it obvious what religion this is and what is 'sin' by a rather standard English definition as to what we are talking about.As this is the General Religious Debates, then I must ask; by what religion or philosophy are you defining the word "sin"?
Some religions see carnal desire as sinful, while others celebrate sexual attraction and love.
Reproduction is pretty darn common among living organisms.SOooooo, if I used the more ..... shall we say "tight-wad" religion,.... then "sin" has been with us since one unicellular organism extended a pilus to another.
God Created two weak fallible humans knowing before hand it would be only time before they would go for the "Cookie Jar."
If God did not want them in the "cookie Jar" he would have put on the top shelf or done a better job of Creation of fallible humans with a better instruction Manual.
By God's plan and foreknowledge that resulted in two fallible shmucks getting blamed for all the suffering, pain and death in the future of humanity.
No just poorly designed fallible shucks taking the blame for God's failed design,
It is pretty good folk tale of an incompetent God.
Daemon Sophic
Avatar in flux
Actually, it doesn't; since all religions of the world have a concept of "sin". But, yes: given the author of the OP, and that she's typing in English, on this board, then it's a fairly safe assumption that she likely meant "per the Christian Bible".
But that's so dulll!!
In that book, EVERYTHING is a fricking sin!
PS - Per your next post (which I fully agree with), God knew when, where, and by whom the "first" sin would be committed prior stepping into the darkness to create light.
Yet, He allowed it anyway. Does that make God guilty of the real first sin ("God made me do it"), before time existed?
Way to push my argument to the next level @shunyadragon !! Thanks!
IF God is omnipotent AND God is omniscient THEN God perfectly foresaw everything that will ever happen in the universe BEFORE [he] created it, AND [he] chose to create it with that knowledge SO God foresaw, intended and is solely responsible for everything that happens, including sin.
Equally, humans are unable to deviate even by the width of a quark from what [he] perfectly foresaw.
Theological determinism is thus even stricter than scientific determinism, which allows for true quantum randomness in some circumstances, such as the emission of any particular particle in the course of radioactive decay.
Brian2
Veteran Member
From what you are saying it appears that you think that little babies will never be able to do anything wrong or for that matter, anything right either, even when they grow into adults. And this is because they have never fully learned what is right and what is wrong.
But of course humans can eventually do what is right and do what is wrong and it probably starts with having been shown by their parents what is right and wrong, starting from little things and with appropriate consequences.
So if God is doing this with A&E, what is your problem?
If a child is told not to do something or the consequences will be nasty, that is part of the teaching process and the child who has not learned about good and evil, can do either good or evil in this lesson.
So from the start the wrong doing of A@E has been recognised.
No, they had been told not to eat the fruit of the TOTKOGAE, and you have made up your own idea that God was denying them this knowledge forever.
They knew what God had commanded and knew the consequences but thought that what they wanted was more important,,,,,,,,,, and they were tempted to do that through the lies of the snake who told them that God had lied to them and that they would not die.
As for that "same day" bit, I have heard at least 2 good reasons, probably 3 as to why that was not a lie by God and you ignore those reasons, as you do everything else said to you in previous encounters on the same topic.
They had not had time to learn about right and wrong, but were still moral beings and were capable of good and evil and were learning about right and wrong from God. I'm sure God would have led humanity through the less painful way, but the more painful way was the way A@E chose through the lies of the snake and you seem to think that humanity and the world is such a good place with all the evil in it, when that need not have happened probably.
Yes that is a bit of background knowledge about the serpent and also prophecy about it's fate.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The instruction manual was simple. Don't eat that fruit. Then the serpent lied about God and about the consequences of eating the fruit and they ate.
God appears to have been in the process of teaching them about right and wrong and letting them exercise their moral muscles.
Poor A&E were blamed when they were no worse than us. That is unfair.
Ultimately the serpent is held responsible (Ezek 28:11-19) and all those who worship him.
Yes we are all prone to blaming God for our failings. Even the worst of us are poorly designed fallible shmucks whom God should judge sympathetically or maybe has no right to judge at all. Is that what Baha'i teaches?
^ childish, petulant Bible-bashing
MelancholicPotatoChip
Member
Sin is a religious term and therefore there would have to be evidence for this particular god and his 'rules of do's and don'ts' for sin to be acknowledged.
^ childish, petulant academic-bashing^ childish, petulant Bible-bashing
based on a biased ancient tribal agenda.It is apparently difficult for you to deal with a factual argument based on academic references.
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That you consider ...
... to be "a factual argument based on academic references" is telling.
Based on the emotional response to my posts in the threads,
This ia not remotely related to our dialogue on the Torah origins and content based on academic references.
The best you can do is Duck Bob and Weasel and referencing a statement that is not related to our dialogue.
Respond objectively to my posts or go home gnashing your teeth and pull your hair out in an emotional rant.
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Bawling my eyes out when I could have been more affirmative.
No just the references I cited relevant to the topic.
Actually if you wish to respond to quote OK! But, do so in the context that the prevalent belief in Christianity is that the faults of two fallible innocent people, Adam and Eve, are the cause of all the death, suffering and sin for thousands of years of human history.
Do you actually believe in the 'Original Sin and Fall' of Adam and Eve caused all this?
You are apparently taking exception to may sarcastic remark, and not putting into the context of the whole discussion.
That is a surprisingly thoughtless, if not stupid, question to ask a Jewish RF member.
Colt
Well-Known Member
Sin = deliberate disloyalty to God. This could have occurred on other inhabited worlds in other systems before our solar system ever existed.
In the Israelites creation story, one may notice that the "crafty beast" was already fallen when he approached Eve who sinned before Adam.
Since Cain feared people out in the world away from his own tribe we can deduce that the world was old and already populated when Adam and Eve arrived as (2) full grown adults who spoke the language of the crafty beast.