What will Christians and Muslims have to say

[.lava]

Lava... homosexuality is 'forbidden' in most Islamic countries - because - of what it says in the Quran. Because the punishment in the Quran states that they should be destroyed - the punishments in those Islamic countries can be Death.

You say that the Hadith contradicts the Quran - but - it does not. The Hadith only gives you a means for their destruction. But... any kind of punishment - jail time, whipping etc.... is barbaric in this case. These people are who they are. They are not ill, they do not need treatment and they do not need to change themselves to be better people.

The sin I see is that a God told his children that they are 'wrong' and should be 'punished' for this behavior. Because of this... Millions have suffered emotionally and physically for far too long.

it was very difficult to find this old thread! i quote from myself;

11:74 So when fear had gone away from Ibrahim and good news came to him, he began to plead with Us for Lut's people.
11:75 Most surely Ibrahim was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah):
11:76 O Ibrahim! leave off this, surely the decree of your Lord has come to pass, and surely there must come to them a chastisement that cannot be averted.
11:77 And when Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved for them, and he lacked strength to protect them, and said: This is a hard day.

i know that hadith is fake. read these verses above and see how Prophet of God felt about those people. those men who's willing to kill gay people are not trying to follow footsteps of Prophet--those great examples that God choiced for all of us. instead they play God. i personally follow and try to be like Prophets because they are the ones who's most beloved by God. i hope this time you see what i mean.
----

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/69257-transexuals-hijab-7.html

God may destroy masses, God also takes lives of all living creatures but we are not supposed to be 'like' God. we are supposed to be like Prophets as they are the most beloved ones by God. these verses i shared shows how a Prophet felt about coming destruction of his people. it was said that someday God would end world when there were no more believers but thisdoes not give any men permission to decide there are no more real believers and end world. i think this is very simple and i hope you distinguish difference between authority of God and its creatures. no men is authority over some other men. we are equal.

.

 

[Draka]

*Climbs in rubber raft*

Hell no.
I just don't want any of the BS getting on my shoes.....


Though, I am wondering how long a rope I needs for the anchor...

Just don't go thinking that a raft will save you from poodle doodle.

 

[Judgment]

it was very difficult to find this old thread! i quote from myself;

11:74 So when fear had gone away from Ibrahim and good news came to him, he began to plead with Us for Lut's people.
11:75 Most surely Ibrahim was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah):
11:76 O Ibrahim! leave off this, surely the decree of your Lord has come to pass, and surely there must come to them a chastisement that cannot be averted.
11:77 And when Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved for them, and he lacked strength to protect them, and said: This is a hard day.

i know that hadith is fake. read these verses above and see how Prophet of God felt about those people. those men who's willing to kill gay people are not trying to follow footsteps of Prophet--those great examples that God choiced for all of us. instead they play God. i personally follow and try to be like Prophets because they are the ones who's most beloved by God. i hope this time you see what i mean.
----

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam/69257-transexuals-hijab-7.html

God may destroy masses, God also takes lives of all living creatures but we are not supposed to be 'like' God. we are supposed to be like Prophets as they are the most beloved ones by God. these verses i shared shows how a Prophet felt about coming destruction of his people. it was said that someday God would end world when there were no more believers but thisdoes not give any men permission to decide there are no more real believers and end world. i think this is very simple and i hope you distinguish difference between authority of God and its creatures. no men is authority over some other men. we are equal.

.

I understand Lava... Punishments are to come from God - not - from God's creations. However - most Islamic societies do not live by this code - they combine the books of the Hadith with the Quran. In doing so they put homosexuals and adulterers and apostates to death, they chop the hand off of someone that steals.

These things are not done by only extremists that terrorize the world - but - by governments thru-out the Islamic world.

If you know that these are wrong - make sure that your voice is heard.

You believe Homosexuality is wrong because Allah has said as much - I disagree with Allah - but - I know I will be at a loss in trying to change your mind on anything the Quran states. Since you believe punishment for their crime should come from God alone - Do you then believe they should face no punishment while they exist in our current state?

 

[.lava]

I understand Lava... Punishments are to come from God - not - from God's creations. However - most Islamic societies do not live by this code - they combine the books of the Hadith with the Quran. In doing so they put homosexuals and adulterers and apostates to death, they chop the hand off of someone that steals.

These things are not done by only extremists that terrorize the world - but - by governments thru-out the Islamic world.

If you know that these are wrong - make sure that your voice is heard.

You believe Homosexuality is wrong because Allah has said as much - I disagree with Allah - but - I know I will be at a loss in trying to change your mind on anything the Quran states. Since you believe punishment for their crime should come from God alone - Do you then believe they should face no punishment while they exist in our current state?

as long as one does not violate someone else's right, it is nobody's business to intervene. there is a significant incident we know that happened during time of Prophet (SAW). one of the four main followers of his, after God commands not to drink wine, he walks back home at night and he hears people are talking and having fun...etc. he goes closer to that house and he realizes they are drinking wine. he breaks in and tells them they must stop drinking wine cos it is against law of God. later on they go to Prophet to reach ultimate solution. Prophet finds his main follower wrong. he forbids to break in houses without permission. noone has right to do that. so yes, i would not mind what you do in your home. it is your home where you should feel secure in this world. as a gay person, it is your business what you do behind closed doors. that simply does not violate my rights.

stealing is violation of other's rights. in the sharia i know, victim is given permission to forgive. there is a verse that says about cutting off right hand of who steals. it is not from hadith. it is in Qur'an. but today, people might be ignored even if they want to trade to save criminal's hand. i mean, for example if you steal something from me, instead of seeing you losing your hand for good, i would offer another solution like cleaning my garden for 6 months. finally it is MY right that's been violated so i can forgive you and God knows i would.

long story short; there is a difference between sin and crime. when i commit sin, i would be violating my own right. when i commit crime there would be other people who's involved. being gay does not violate rights of others. you know those tribes who were destroyed by God all at once, they were not just gay. they were using kids as their sexual toys. if a gay guy was abusive and having sexual relationship with children, then he must be punished. but two adults who's sane chosing to be gay and having relationship, that is completely different story. in some nation they kill these people. it is wrong. it is like killing a woman cos she talks behind others, or killing a man because he drinks wine...etc. if all sins were punished by death, everyone would have to die. nobody is perfect.

.

 

[Judgment]

as long as one does not violate someone else's right, it is nobody's business to intervene. there is a significant incident we know that happened during time of Prophet (SAW). one of the four main followers of his, after God commands not to drink wine, he walks back home at night and he hears people are talking and having fun...etc. he goes closer to that house and he realizes they are drinking wine. he breaks in and tells them they must stop drinking wine cos it is against law of God. later on they go to Prophet to reach ultimate solution. Prophet finds his main follower wrong. he forbids to break in houses without permission. noone has right to do that. so yes, i would not mind what you do in your home. it is your home where you should feel secure in this world. as a gay person, it is your business what you do behind closed doors. that simply does not violate my rights.

stealing is violation of other's rights. in the sharia i know, victim is given permission to forgive. there is a verse that says about cutting off right hand of who steals. it is not from hadith. it is in Qur'an. but today, people might be ignored even if they want to trade to save criminal's hand. i mean, for example if you steal something from me, instead of seeing you losing your hand for good, i would offer another solution like cleaning my garden for 6 months. finally it is MY right that's been violated so i can forgive you and God knows i would.

long story short; there is a difference between sin and crime. when i commit sin, i would be violating my own right. when i commit crime there would be other people who's involved. being gay does not violate rights of others. you know those tribes who were destroyed by God all at once, they were not just gay. they were using kids as their sexual toys. if a gay guy was abusive and having sexual relationship with children, then he must be punished. but two adults who's sane chosing to be gay and having relationship, that is completely different story. in some nation they kill these people. it is wrong. it is like killing a woman cos she talks behind others, or killing a man because he drinks wine...etc. if all sins were punished by death, everyone would have to die. nobody is perfect.

.

Your mind is more open than many of your faith that I have spoken with. I know I hold no authority to you - and you do not need 'me' telling you how open your mind is - but - that is what I see.

You do not accept the harsh punishments that have been called for by more hardline clerics and governments and view these harsh punishments as counterproductive and against the teachings of the Quran.

I do not agree with the Quran concerning homosexuals, other harsh punishments - such as - chopping off of body parts or the way Unbelievers are viewed... and never will - but - I do believe Islam could use more followers such as yourself Lava.

I know you are not alone and I hope that you and others like you speak out against the horrific violence that continues to be done in Islam's name.

 

[challupa]

as long as one does not violate someone else's right, it is nobody's business to intervene. there is a significant incident we know that happened during time of Prophet (SAW). one of the four main followers of his, after God commands not to drink wine, he walks back home at night and he hears people are talking and having fun...etc. he goes closer to that house and he realizes they are drinking wine. he breaks in and tells them they must stop drinking wine cos it is against law of God. later on they go to Prophet to reach ultimate solution. Prophet finds his main follower wrong. he forbids to break in houses without permission. noone has right to do that. so yes, i would not mind what you do in your home. it is your home where you should feel secure in this world. as a gay person, it is your business what you do behind closed doors. that simply does not violate my rights.

stealing is violation of other's rights. in the sharia i know, victim is given permission to forgive. there is a verse that says about cutting off right hand of who steals. it is not from hadith. it is in Qur'an. but today, people might be ignored even if they want to trade to save criminal's hand. i mean, for example if you steal something from me, instead of seeing you losing your hand for good, i would offer another solution like cleaning my garden for 6 months. finally it is MY right that's been violated so i can forgive you and God knows i would.

long story short; there is a difference between sin and crime. when i commit sin, i would be violating my own right. when i commit crime there would be other people who's involved. being gay does not violate rights of others. you know those tribes who were destroyed by God all at once, they were not just gay. they were using kids as their sexual toys. if a gay guy was abusive and having sexual relationship with children, then he must be punished. but two adults who's sane chosing to be gay and having relationship, that is completely different story. in some nation they kill these people. it is wrong. it is like killing a woman cos she talks behind others, or killing a man because he drinks wine...etc. if all sins were punished by death, everyone would have to die. nobody is perfect.

.

I'm all out of frubals but this post deserves frubals once again lava!

 

[.lava]

Your mind is more open than many of your faith that I have spoken with. I know I hold no authority to you - and you do not need 'me' telling you how open your mind is - but - that is what I see.

You do not accept the harsh punishments that have been called for by more hardline clerics and governments and view these harsh punishments as counterproductive and against the teachings of the Quran.

I do not agree with the Quran concerning homosexuals, other harsh punishments - such as - chopping off of body parts or the way Unbelievers are viewed... and never will - but - I do believe Islam could use more followers such as yourself Lava.

I know you are not alone and I hope that you and others like you speak out against the horrific violence that continues to be done in Islam's name.

i try to get to know God and dynamics of this reality. there are some facts that i know. simple facts. God treats me in the same way i treat people. if one is cruel to people, he has no chance having compassion in return. if one is liar, he has no chance finding the truth. these kind of facts apply to every single human being on Earth. because of these kind of facts, in our commune we do not complaint about how people treat us. we always try to find excuse within ourselves, not in others. my master says that everyone is superior than me and everyone is right and i am not. he says that real talent in this world is to love people who hates me. he says that loving people is our duty because loving creation is equal loving God itself. he is a Imam of Islam and this is how we know religion. do you know how it feels like to be in a society where eveyone treats each other as the other one was superior and other one is right? this world breaks my heart. it truly does. because people want revenge. people want others to suffer. people want to kill and destroy everything that they would not accept. it is submission to hatred, not God. i am saying these things because i am not open minded. i do love people and i do not want anyone to suffer, not in this life, not in after life. they kill gay people. why? did you ever wonder how they even know those guys are gay? normal human being would not want anyone to go hell. not even one single person in this world is trying to end up in eternal flames. nobody is trying to be unhappy. imo when a believer of God meets someone who's headed to hell, he should pray for him. but as you see, they are instead longing to see them in hell. you know what it means? it means they want satan win this war. you as a non-Muslim should remember book of this religion is Qur'an. it is your right to demand to see verses that say gay people deserve death penalty. that verse does not exist. i would like to share here one more time, i hope you read when you have time;

International MIHR Foundation International Mihr Foundation

in this link there is a chapter about free will (listed on the left side of the screen). i suggest you to read it. this website is the only one that i know that offers true knowledge of Islam. translations of Qur'an is flawless. rest of internet is a jungle to me.

.

 

[Sajdah]

long story short; there is a difference between sin and crime. when i commit sin, i would be violating my own right. when i commit crime there would be other people who's involved. being gay does not violate rights of others. you know those tribes who were destroyed by God all at once, they were not just gay. they were using kids as their sexual toys. if a gay guy was abusive and having sexual relationship with children, then he must be punished. but two adults who's sane chosing to be gay and having relationship, that is completely different story. in some nation they kill these people. it is wrong. it is like killing a woman cos she talks behind others, or killing a man because he drinks wine...etc. if all sins were punished by death, everyone would have to die. nobody is perfect.

.

Well said Lava, we should differentiate between the sin and those who commit it, yes, that sin is awful and we hate it, but I can not hate the one who commit it because s/he might repent at any time and stop committing such sin. And also who am I to judge people and to say that one is good and this one is bad.
I think that those who suffer from homosexuality(a great sin) are in need for treatment rather than punishment; they are in need for advice, and help.

 

[gnomon]

Reading the inability of so many to actually answer the question in the OP is a great psychological study.

 

[Sajdah]

Reading the inability of so many to actually answer the question in the OP is a great psychological study.

As regard to the OP, homosexuality is a great sin, whether it is because of sexual abuse or by genetics(there is no scientific proof on that point), it is unnatural, and those gays are in need for treatment and help. Nothing is gonna be changed, just like those who suffer from Kleptomania, they are also in need for a treatment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Man-made laws keep changing because they have weaknesses in them.

Yes, and they change when those weaknesses are identified, or when the law no longer fits properly. I think this is one great quality of man-made law, and it's one that religious edicts normally lack.

I agree that man-made laws do have weaknesses, however, it's only the man-made laws that are acknowledged as man-made that have the capacity to change and become better.

Most man-made law will improve with time. The man-made law that you attribute to God cannot improve as long as you don't acknowledge it as man-made.

God made the living creatures in pairs, for example:

• a male plant and a female plant.
• a cow and a bull
• a tiger and a tigress

Have you ever seen a bull having sex with another bull?

Even animals have not gone so low.

Heh - I remember the first time I met my then-girlfriend's parents: she opened the door and behind her were two of her stepmom's dogs, both female, one humping the other and both staring at me happily.

Gender isn't as clear-cut as you make it out to be. I wonder what you make of this:

Male or Female?

It is important to note that not all animals are strictly male or female. Animals such as sea anemones may have both male and female reproductive parts-- hermaphrodites. It is possible for some hermaphrodites to self-fertilize, but most must find a mate to reproduce. Since both parties involved become fertilized, this process doubles the number of young that are produced. Hermaphroditism is a good solution to the scarcity of potential mates. Another solution is the ability to change gender from a male to a female (protandry) or from a female to a male (protogyny). Certain fish, like wrasses, may change from female to male as they mature into adulthood.

Also, some species of insect (can't remember which, unfortunately - it's been a while since I heard the radio show that talked about them) that will switch back and forth between sexual and asexual reproduction. Usually it's in species that have intermittent food supplies: when they have food, they breed asexually - they're actually born pregnant - so that they can reproduce as quickly as possible. These offspring are anatomically fairly simple. When the food supply runs out, they start producing males, who then breed sexually (for maximum genetic diversity, to ensure that at least some of their offspring survive) and produce more complex, winged offspring.

 

[gnomon]

As regard to the OP, homosexuality is a great sin, whether it is because of sexual abuse or by genetics(there is no scientific proof on that point), it is unnatural, and those gays are in need for treatment and help. Nothing is gonna be changed, just like those who suffer from Kleptomania, they are also in need for a treatment.

Actually, the context of the OP is the situation that homosexuality is natural.

Given that the standard has been held by so many religions for so long that homosexuality is not natural............

Back to the question.

How would the theological point of view of those religions change given the natural condition of homosexuality?

Only Katzpur has even offered up an answer to that question. I can admire that even though I may fundamentally disagree with her view.

However, everyone else has simply avoided answering the question based on their faith.

Pretty damn sad. But at least it clues us in on the psychological maturity of some people.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Back to the question.

How would the theological point of view of those religions change given the natural condition of homosexuality?

Speaking as devil's advocate...

For any denomination or individual who believes that death and disease came into the world through sin, I don't see how it would change anything to find a "gay gene". It still wouldn't necessarily mean that gay people were God's doing.

Also, the standard response these days (created in anticipation of finding a natural cause for homosexuality, IMO) seems to be that homosexuality itself isn't a sin, but homosexual acts are, and while a person may have a predispensation for a particular act, it's still their choice whether to engage in it or not.

 

[gnomon]

Speaking as devil's advocate...

For any denomination or individual who believes that death and disease came into the world through sin, I don't see how it would change anything to find a "gay gene". It still wouldn't necessarily mean that gay people were God's doing.

Also, the standard response these days (created in anticipation of finding a natural cause for homosexuality, IMO) seems to be that homosexuality itself isn't a sin, but homosexual acts are, and while a person may have a predispensation for a particular act, it's still their choice whether to engage in it or not.

Aye, I believe that was Katzpur's statement and I somewhat anticipated that.

But for those who assert, as Sajdah does, that it is unnatural and in need of treatement.........

It's similar to the "What if you're wrong?" question.

I don't think it's too far of a generalization to assert that the majority of religious believers hold the mere state of being a homosexual to be sinful and unnatural.

 

[.lava]

Aye, I believe that was Katzpur's statement and I somewhat anticipated that.

But for those who assert, as Sajdah does, that it is unnatural and in need of treatement.........

It's similar to the "What if you're wrong?" question.

I don't think it's too far of a generalization to assert that the majority of religious believers hold the mere state of being a homosexual to be sinful and unnatural.

don't you think there must be something wrong if male body was producing female hormons?

.

 

[gnomon]

don't you think there must be something wrong if male body was producing female hormons?

.

Men and women produce both hormones. Androgens, responsible for the development of male sexual characteristics as well as muscle development and other common male characteristics is produced by the adrenal gland as well as the testes. The adrenal gland exists in male and female humans. Even ovaries produce a small amount of androgen.

There is not a clear concept of how hormones drive sexuality (identity, level of activity, etc.). Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome leads to an individual who is, according to chromosomal determination, a male yet has all the appearance of a female.

I don't think wrong is the proper term. There exists no perfect blueprint of a human being. The more proper terms would be abnormal, uncommon or infrequent. Regardless, they are still human beings that can develop the same emotional and sexual desires as a "common" human being.

Theological viewpoints of the major world religions do not account for this. They rely on a worldview of sexual dimorphism. The fact that not all human beings fall under a clear category of male or female but also that there is a considerable number of such people calls into question the validity of certain theological views regarding natural phenomena.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

don't you think there must be something wrong if male body was producing female hormons?

Do you really think that's what causes homosexuality?

 

[.lava]

Do you really think that's what causes homosexuality?

i would be surprised if there was only one reason for homosexuality. but yes, i think hormons play a role. otherwise people would not take hormons to grow mustache.

.

 

[challupa]

This is something I have never understood. Why are most religions so hung up on sexuality and sex in general? What happened there?

 

[J Bryson]

For those who state that homosexuality is "unnatural", please note that by definition nothing is unnatural if it occurs in nature.

Now Google "Homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom".

Aw, heck, I'm feeling nice. How about I do it for you?