What WW2 actually was: a war between banking powers

[Estro Felino]

I am curious how this will end. It's been long with little gains, it's been espensive and devastating to military equipment, and it's been disastrous for many people in Russia's upper eschalon in various ways such as property seizures and high ranked military officials being killed.
If it keeps going on as it has Putin himself might end up vanishing.

Exactly,
I would like to know where they are getting at.
A war can't last forever.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, I heard that story about Goering's guard who was suspected of smuggling in the cyanide. I heard he was even addressing him by his title of "Reich Marshall." I also heard that when he was first captured, it was by low-level American units who were treating him like exiled royalty, as if he was a celebrity. Perhaps he had a certain level of charisma; hard to say.

No kidding? That must have pleased Goring. I remember that he was stunned to be stripped of his medals and insignia when arrested. He thought he was going to be treated like a celebrity. The arrogance of the guy.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've read of such things that happened during the war, such as US companies which did business with Nazi Germany before the war (although my understanding is that they suspended their business relationships during the war itself). Still, I would note that there are a lot of things that US companies and the US political leadership did during those years which are questionable, to be sure. Are they guilty of aiding and abetting the enemy and accessories to murder and genocide? Or are they just like many who said they didn't know what was going on?

Didn't many of the German industrialists get relatively light sentences? I don't have time to look right now, but I recall seeing a documentary about Albert Speer and how many of the people he worked with during the war - various ministry officials and those in private industry - were free and becoming fully integrated as important members of the West German economy. They were still somewhat loyal to Speer and were helping him from the outside while he was in prison.

Unfortunately there is overwhelming evidence it all started in the US, not in Germany.

New York Times, September 8, 1919. You can check on it yourself in the library.

Six Million Jews are in peril

What does that mean? That in 1919, when Hitler was poor and insignificant, someone else had decided:
- to spread the news that in Ukraine there were pogroms everywhere, and Jews had to flee somewhere else.
- and that six million Jews had to die.


It wasn't the Germans who took this decision. That's for sure.

 

[Stevicus]

Unfortunately there is overwhelming evidence it all started in the US, not in Germany.

New York Times, September 8, 1919. You can check on it yourself in the library.

Six Million Ukrainian Jews are in peril

View attachment 77498

What does that mean? That in 1919, when Hitler was poor and insignificant, someone else had decided:
- to spread the news that in Ukraine there were pogroms everywhere, and Jews had to flee somewhere else.
- and that six million Jews had to die.


It wasn't the Germans who took this decision. That's for sure.

Well, there were pogroms in Tsarist Russia going back to even before Hitler was born. Hitler did not invent anti-Semitism. In fact, very few of his ideas were particularly original.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well, there were pogroms in Tsarist Russia going back to even before Hitler was born. Hitler did not invent anti-Semitism. In fact, very few of his ideas were particularly original.

Right.
Where does the number six million Jews come from? It was 1919. Written on the NY Times.
It appeared for the first time on the NY Times of June 6 1915

 

[Stevicus]

Right.
Where does the number six million Jews come from? It was 1919. Written on the NY Times.
It appeared for the first time on the NY Times of June 6 1915

I'm not sure. I'm guessing they probably would have relied on whatever census data existed at the time. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not denying that the US government and business leadership made questionable and malicious decisions in the past, although whether they share the same degree of guilt as the top leaders in Germany may be a stretch.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not sure. I'm guessing they probably would have relied on whatever census data existed at the time. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not denying that the US government and business leadership made questionable and malicious decisions in the past, although whether they share the same degree of guilt as the top leaders in Germany may be a stretch.

Six million is the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust. Approximately.

Israel remembers 6 million Jews killed in Holocaust

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israelis ground to a halt for a nationwide moment of silence on Tuesday in remembrance of the 6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust as a two-minute siren wailed across the country.

apnews.com

Isn't it absolutely weird and shocking that that number appeared repeatedly in several American newspapers from 1915 onward?

It didn't appear in German newspapers, for sure.

 

[Stevicus]

Six million is the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust. Approximately.

Israel remembers 6 million Jews killed in Holocaust

JERUSALEM (AP) — Israelis ground to a halt for a nationwide moment of silence on Tuesday in remembrance of the 6 million Jewish victims of the Holocaust as a two-minute siren wailed across the country.

apnews.com

Isn't it absolutely weird and shocking that that number appeared repeatedly in several American newspapers from 1915 onward?

It didn't appear in German newspapers, for sure.

I've heard different estimates as to the number of dead. They sometimes vary. Some are even higher, around 7 million. Estimates of the total dead from WW2 also vary widely, from 50 million to almost 100 million, depending on how one counts the dead. I can't explain what was written in American newspapers from more than 100 years ago.

 

[Estro Felino]

I've heard different estimates as to the number of dead. They sometimes vary. Some are even higher, around 7 million. Estimates of the total dead from WW2 also vary widely, from 50 million to almost 100 million, depending on how one counts the dead. I can't explain what was written in American newspapers from more than 100 years ago.

Am I too suspicious if I think that that number was decided in that period?
And there were certain élites that did want the elimination of six million Jews since the first decade of the 20th century?

The death count is pretty accurate: Holocaust facts: Where does the figure of 6 million victims come from? Six Million indeed.

You know... I read the names of those who built Auschwitz...then I read those newspapers
I can easily put two and two together.

 

[Revoltingest]

My dad was in the army in the early 1960's and he was sent to Augsberg, Germany as part of a tank crew. This was a hot zone in the early 1960's. We all moved there and lived in a duplex. The people next door were a bit older, and the husband had been conscripted into the SS at the end of the war as a teenager. He wasn't a Nazi and wasn't trained to the level of the Waffen SS during the early war years, he was just a repacement. But he was in the SS and that was a mark against him for many years. My parents got along with them very well, the Germans loved Americans. Kennedy was the president when we were there and my mom found out Kennedy was killed when our German neighbor came over in a panic and was trying to mime out that he was shot. At first my mom tought it was something good, but as Else kept talking my mom slowly realized he was shot.

Augsburg

 

[Revoltingest]

Unfortunately there is overwhelming evidence it all started in the US, not in Germany.

New York Times, September 8, 1919. You can check on it yourself in the library.

Six Million Jews are in peril

View attachment 77498

What does that mean? That in 1919, when Hitler was poor and insignificant, someone else had decided:
- to spread the news that in Ukraine there were pogroms everywhere, and Jews had to flee somewhere else.
- and that six million Jews had to die.


It wasn't the Germans who took this decision. That's for sure.

So in your mind, USA caused Russia to invade Ukraine.
And now USA started WW2, not Hitler.

Is this all because of shame that Italy sided with Hitler,
& you want to minimize that by blaming USA?
No amount of specious finger pointing will erase Italy's
having sided with Hitler against USA & allies, & with
Hitler's pogroms.

 

[Estro Felino]

So in your mind, USA caused Russia to invade Ukraine.
And now USA started WW2, not Hitler.

Is this all because of shame that Italy sided with Hitler,
& you want to minimize that by blaming USA?

No...I just want everyone to acknowledge my country played no role in the Holocaust.
I demand it.
After presenting that evidence.

 

[Augustus]

I don't get the conspiracy theory stuff. And Hitler was not a puppet.

*shrugs*

Everything seen as bad has to happen “because single reason by small number of bad people”.

Explains everything from perceived evils like the rise of religions to ancient wars to imperialism to modern wars to despotism and totalitarianism to global poverty and injustice.

If only we could just stop these bad people then everything would be wonderful.

“Bad man did X” is more satisfying than human nature makes such things inevitable sooner or later and there is not all that much we can do to solve it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Italy, Germany, and Spain became fascist countries under Mussolini, Hitler, and Franco. The Soviets were socialists based on the teachings of Marx. Fascism is rightist and socialism is leftist.

That's an overly narrow definition of "fascism"
Consider....

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Excerpted....
1 (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

That primary definition sure does describe the USSR.
It describes every socialist country that ever existed.
Perhaps you believe that socialist authoritarianism
is better than other authoritarianism?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can easily put two and two together.

Yeah, you have a habit of "putting things together" without evidence.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah, you have a habit of "putting things together" without evidence.

I did provide people here with evidence.
The newspapers articles.
Didn't you read them?

NYT, June 6, 1915
NYT, September 8, 1919
NYT, July 20, 1921

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I did provide people here with evidence.

No. You provided conspiracy theories.

The newspapers articles.
Didn't you read them?

NYT, June 6, 1915
NYT, September 8, 1919
NYT, July 20, 1921

I don't see any evidence there other then anti-semitism and persecution of jews not being anything new in 1939.
And I didn't require such articles to know that.

Jews have a history of millenia of being persecuted.

 

[Stevicus]

Am I too suspicious if I think that that number was decided in that period?
And there were certain élites that did want the elimination of six million Jews since the first decade of the 20th century?

The death count is pretty accurate: Holocaust facts: Where does the figure of 6 million victims come from? Six Million indeed.

You know... I read the names of those who built Auschwitz...then I read those newspapers
I can easily put two and two together.

Link didn't work. I would concede that there have been always those who have been anti-Semitic and some may have wanted to eliminate Jewish people. Such attitudes go back even further than the 20th century.

 

[Estro Felino]

No. You provided conspiracy theories.


I don't see any evidence there other then anti-semitism and persecution of jews not being anything new in 1939.
And I didn't require such articles to know that.

Jews have a history of millenia of being persecuted.

And the number six million?
It's a coincidence, right?

 

[Estro Felino]

Link didn't work. I would concede that there have been always those who have been anti-Semitic and some may have wanted to eliminate Jewish people. Such attitudes go back even further than the 20th century.

When you read the New York Times from 1921, where it says that six million Jews were being murdered already back then...in Soviet Russia,
well...you understand there are evil minds behind the scenes programming a genocide since long time.
And spreading the news in advance.