What WW2 actually was: a war between banking powers

[F1fan]

I'm not sure. I'm guessing they probably would have relied on whatever census data existed at the time. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I'm not denying that the US government and business leadership made questionable and malicious decisions in the past, although whether they share the same degree of guilt as the top leaders in Germany may be a stretch.

Right, most of Europe and even the USA were anti-Semitic. When the Nazis were vocal about blaming Jews a lot of people didn't mind. Even moving Jews elsewhere was probably OK with many folks. It was the starving and extermination that crosed a line, and only the Nazis were willing to do this. Stalin had his own issues, but authoritarian leaders tend to have serious mental health problems in hindsight.

Heck the story of the St. Louis is seldom talked about in the USA, but it was a criminal act to my mind.

Voyage of the St. Louis

In May 1939, the German transatlantic liner St. Louis sailed from Germany to Cuba. Most of the passengers were Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. Learn more about the voyage.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

 

[metis]

That just will not work. If they don't return violence with violence they will suffer. Because, no, Putin won't give up. But not even he is immune to the consequences of a drawn out, unpopular war. And unless they want to be subjugated by the next Russian leader they have to keep on fighting until Putin, one way or another, gives up.

Whether it would have or not is always debatable, but what is not debatable to me is taking actions that can lead to many deaths of children and other innocents as we're seeing. Governments come and go, but contributing to the killing of innocents is not acceptable for me to do or support.

 

[Stevicus]

When you read the New York Times from 1921, where it says that six million Jews were being murdered already back then...in Soviet Russia,
well...you understand there are evil minds behind the scenes programming a genocide since long time.
And spreading the news in advance.

View attachment 77507

The article here says they were facing extermination, although it would appear the number is likely based on whatever census or population estimates existed at the time. This was from 1921, during the time of the Red Scare, when the U.S. government was particularly worried about "foreign agitators" who were targeted for arrest and/or deportation (Palmer Raids). The Nazis were not yet in power, and the article here (incorrectly) suggests that "the Soviet's power is waning," but that was obviously not the case.

As for the numbers, again, these are just estimates - and they're oftentimes incomplete or can have wide variances. Here's an excerpt from a book called Dirty Little Secrets of World War II which makes some interesting points on the subject:


HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN WORLD WAR II?

The war killed a lot more people than is commonly thought. We estimate
the total death toll to be near 100 million. However, the number of
people who were killed in or died as a consequence of World War II
cannot be determined with any absolute degree of accuracy. Traditional
estimates range from a low of 30 million to a high of 55 million, yet with
some merely cursory research of available information we readily
arrived at a figure approaching 80 million.

The figures published by some countries are very incomplete. For
example, generally published figures for civilian losses in Hungary are
about 200,000, yet about 90 percent of Hungary's 400,000 Jews perished
in Hitler's death camps. Civilian deaths in the Soviet Union were actually
higher than previously thought according to recently published
documents from previously secret Soviet archives. And then there is the
problem of losses in the Third World. The millions of civilians who starved to death in India and Indochina as a consequence of a global shipping shortage are not usually listed as victims of the war, but most certainly were.

There were also deaths, albeit small, due to military operations in Iran
and Iraq, as well as from accidental air attacks on Switzerland and
Sweden, as well as among neutral merchant seamen.

Nor do the figures include people in many countries killed during
industrial accidents because of the increased work load for the war
effort: About 300,000 Americans died in such mishaps during the war,
some certainly war-related. And then there are the people who died after
the war, often long after, from the lingering effects of wounds or
privation, and from the civil disorders, insurrections, and anticolonial
revolutions engendered by the war.

So it is not unreasonable to say that nearly a 100 million people
perished as a result of World War II. This was about 5 percent of the
planet's population at the time.

 

[Estro Felino]

Right, most of Europe and even the USA were anti-Semitic. When the Nazis were vocal about blaming Jews a lot of people didn't mind. Even moving Jews elsewhere was probably OK with many folks. It was the starving and extermination that crosed a line, and only the Nazis were willing to do this. Stalin had his own issues, but authoritarian leaders tend to have serious mental health problems in hindsight.

Heck the story of the St. Louis is seldom talked about in the USA, but it was a criminal act to my mind.

Voyage of the St. Louis

In May 1939, the German transatlantic liner St. Louis sailed from Germany to Cuba. Most of the passengers were Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. Learn more about the voyage.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Whenever I speak of those élites living in the US, I don't mean the American commoners.
I do know so many Jews were welcomed with open arms by the American people.

But those élites are not American. It's also disrespectful to call them Americans.
They are supranational, stateless élites whose surnames have been changed so many times across history.
And yes, they did play a role, either directly or indirectly in that terrible genocide.
And the St. Louis episode proves it. Do you know why? Because all the other ships full of other European migrants didn't receive the same treatment.

 

[Estro Felino]

The article here says they were facing extermination, although it would appear the number is likely based on whatever census or population estimates existed at the time. This was from 1921, during the time of the Red Scare, when the U.S. government was particularly worried about "foreign agitators" who were targeted for arrest and/or deportation (Palmer Raids). The Nazis were not yet in power, and the article here (incorrectly) suggests that "the Soviet's power is waning," but that was obviously not the case.

As for the numbers, again, these are just estimates - and they're oftentimes incomplete or can have wide variances. Here's an excerpt from a book called Dirty Little Secrets of World War II which makes some interesting points on the subject:


HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN WORLD WAR II?

The war killed a lot more people than is commonly thought. We estimate
the total death toll to be near 100 million. However, the number of
people who were killed in or died as a consequence of World War II
cannot be determined with any absolute degree of accuracy. Traditional
estimates range from a low of 30 million to a high of 55 million, yet with
some merely cursory research of available information we readily
arrived at a figure approaching 80 million.

The figures published by some countries are very incomplete. For
example, generally published figures for civilian losses in Hungary are
about 200,000, yet about 90 percent of Hungary's 400,000 Jews perished
in Hitler's death camps. Civilian deaths in the Soviet Union were actually
higher than previously thought according to recently published
documents from previously secret Soviet archives. And then there is the
problem of losses in the Third World. The millions of civilians who starved to death in India and Indochina as a consequence of a global shipping shortage are not usually listed as victims of the war, but most certainly were.

There were also deaths, albeit small, due to military operations in Iran
and Iraq, as well as from accidental air attacks on Switzerland and
Sweden, as well as among neutral merchant seamen.

Nor do the figures include people in many countries killed during
industrial accidents because of the increased work load for the war
effort: About 300,000 Americans died in such mishaps during the war,
some certainly war-related. And then there are the people who died after
the war, often long after, from the lingering effects of wounds or
privation, and from the civil disorders, insurrections, and anticolonial
revolutions engendered by the war.

So it is not unreasonable to say that nearly a 100 million people
perished as a result of World War II. This was about 5 percent of the
planet's population at the time.

I am sorry...but the number six million is pretty accurate.
It has never been debunked. It is from 5.8 million to 6.2 million.
It is written in all European history books. I have just checked on my high school book.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ukraine should have never waged war against the separatists of Donbas, yes.
They are to blame.

Of course you blame the country that was
invaded. Heaven that anyone blame beloved
Putin or good Christian Mother Russia, eh.

Separatists are all over the place, in many
countries. You'd argue that wherever this happens,
other countries get to invade, kill, destroy, conquer,
& take them.
Your way of thinking is failing. Russia is quickly
becoming a shell empty of soldiers & materiel.
Let Russia eat death.

 

[F1fan]

No...I just want everyone to acknowledge my country played no role in the Holocaust.
I demand it.
After presenting that evidence.

How many Italian Jews survived the German occupation of Italy?

Italy

Italy was home to one of the oldest Jewish communities in Europe. It was also a member of the Axis alliance with Nazi Germany. Learn about Italy during WWII and the Holocaust.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Looks like your claim here is incorrect.

 

[Estro Felino]

How many Italian Jews survived the German occupation of Italy?

Italy

Italy was home to one of the oldest Jewish communities in Europe. It was also a member of the Axis alliance with Nazi Germany. Learn about Italy during WWII and the Holocaust.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Looks like your claim here is incorrect.

In 1943, the South was entirely occupied by Americans and the North was entirely occupied by Nazis.
Italy didn't exist in 1943-1945.
In the North there was a Nazi government. Even Italians were mass murdered by Nazis.
Not only Jews.
The Fascists had never touched the Jews in Rome. In 1943 the Nazis entered Rome (declared open city) and abducted and deported the Roman Jews.: Raid of the Ghetto of Rome - Wikipedia

 

[Revoltingest]

No...I just want everyone to acknowledge my country played no role in the Holocaust.
I demand it.
After presenting that evidence.

Italy sided with Hitler. This enhanced his power.
He used it to perpetrate more than just the Holocaust
(which killed not just Jews, as is commonly portrayed),
but also many other people & soldiers killed.
Italy sided with that...made it easier for Hitler.

 

[Estro Felino]

Italy sided with Hitler. This enhanced his power.
He used it to perpetrate not just the Holocaust
(which killed not just Jews, as is commonly portrayed),
but many other people & soldiers killed.
Italy sided with that...made it easier for Hitler.

Some dem parliamentarian said that once:

I know Mussolini was a murderer, and I will never forget it.

And Alessandra Mussolini (parliamentarian at that time) replied 5:01:

I will not deal with what history was. We all know what happened. I will not allow that people express a judgment on the person I didn't mention before: my grandfather Benito Mussolini lynched at Piazzale Loreto, without being tried first. I will not allow it. Notwithstanding the responsibilities, which may have taken place, but there was no trial. And nobody dare call my grandfather murderer, whose surname I gave to my children.

I repeat it: there was no trial, so we can only assume.

 

[Augustus]

When you read the New York Times from 1921, where it says that six million Jews were being murdered already back then...in Soviet Russia,
well...you understand there are evil minds behind the scenes programming a genocide since long time.
And spreading the news in advance.

View attachment 77507

The Soviets persecuted all religious groups.

That someone wrote this and the well documented famines posed a threat to the all of the 6 million Jews in the USSR is not evidence what you are claiming.

Yes it is a coincidence and a rather unremarkable one at that.

 

[Estro Felino]

The Soviets persecuted all religious groups.

That someone wrote this and the well documented famines posed a threat to the all of the 6 million Jews in the USSR is not evidence what you are claiming.

Yes it is a coincidence and a rather unremarkable one at that.

I will never believe in coincidences, I am sorry.

Numbers are not random.
You need to point out that there were ca. 12 million Jews from all over the world, at that time.
Six million were not only in Soviet Russia. They were scattered across all Eurasian countries, including Northern Africa.

 

[F1fan]

I will never believe in coincidences, I am sorry.

Odd, I was just thinking the same thing. What a coincidence.

 

[Stevicus]

Right, most of Europe and even the USA were anti-Semitic. When the Nazis were vocal about blaming Jews a lot of people didn't mind. Even moving Jews elsewhere was probably OK with many folks. It was the starving and extermination that crosed a line, and only the Nazis were willing to do this. Stalin had his own issues, but authoritarian leaders tend to have serious mental health problems in hindsight.

Heck the story of the St. Louis is seldom talked about in the USA, but it was a criminal act to my mind.

Voyage of the St. Louis

In May 1939, the German transatlantic liner St. Louis sailed from Germany to Cuba. Most of the passengers were Jews fleeing Nazi Germany. Learn more about the voyage.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

I remember a TV movie called Voyage of the Damned from 1976. It was about the St. Louis and their ill-fated trip to Cuba. I wondered why they just couldn't let them come to the United States. Perhaps it was more than FDR could bite off, politically, at the time. The US was still deeply affected by the Depression, although things were slowly getting better. The anti-immigrant, isolationist sentiment arose largely due to the Red Scare of the early 20s, but there were also anti-Asian sentiments on the West Coast, and the KKK was enjoying a resurgence (which would drop off during the 30s and 40s but its presence was still felt).

FDR was a product of his times and had to "play ball" with the dominant political forces in America at the time - although on the whole, I think he was generally a progressive and liberal, forward-thinking President. Ultimately, I think he proved to be a superior leader during WW2. But he knew his limitations, although when it came to dealing with the Germans and the Nazi regime, the gloves were clearly off during the war. Also, with the Japanese in the Pacific Theater. We were waging total war and accepting nothing less than unconditional surrender.

The primary historical regret that many Americans have expressed in the aftermath was that we were slow to act and perhaps didn't have the foresight to see what was coming. We weren't really prepared for war in 1939 - or even in 1941, but we had to get moving quickly - which was another of FDR's talents. Once the sleeping giant had awoken, we were fully on board with destroying the Axis powers completely.

 

[Stevicus]

I am sorry...but the number six million is pretty accurate.
It has never been debunked. It is from 5.8 million to 6.2 million.
It is written in all European history books. I have just checked on my high school book.

I didn't say the number was inaccurate, but I was merely pointing out that counting the dead is process which can contain inexactitudes, even when is dealing with the most complete records possible.

How Many People did the Nazis Murder?

Behind the number of victims of the Holocaust and Nazi persecution are people whose hopes and dreams were destroyed. Learn about the toll of Nazi policies.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Notes on DocumentationClick here to copy a link to this section​

No single wartime document

There is no single wartime document that contains the above cited estimates of Jewish deaths.

There are three obvious and interrelated reasons for the lack of a single document:

1. Compilation of comprehensive statistics of Jews killed by German and other Axis authorities began in 1942 and 1943. It broke down during the last year and a half of the war.
2. Beginning in 1943, as it became clear that they would lose the war, the Germans and their Axis partners destroyed much of the existing documentation. They also destroyed physical evidence of mass murder.
3. No personnel were available or inclined to count Jewish deaths until the very end of World War II and the Nazi regime. Hence, total estimates are calculated only after the end of the war and are based on demographic loss data and the documents of the perpetrators. Though fragmentary, these sources provide essential figures from which to make calculations.

Only one comprehensive statistical study conducted on behalf of SS chief Heinrich Himmler survived the war. A copy was among the records captured by the US Army in 1945. Likewise, several regional compilations of such gruesome data were among the records captured by US, British, and Soviet forces after World War II. The United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union have used most of these documents at one time or another as exhibits in criminal or civil proceedings against Nazi offenders.

Polish and Soviet civilian figures

With regard to the Polish and Soviet civilian figures, at this time there are not sufficient demographic tools to enable historians to distinguish between:

1. racially targeted individuals
2. persons actually or believed to be active in underground resistance
3. persons killed in reprisal for some actual or perceived resistance activity carried out by someone else
4. losses due to so-called collateral damage in actual military operations

Virtually all deaths of Soviet, Polish, and Serb civilians during the course of military and anti-partisan operations had, however, a racist component. German units conducted those operations with an ideologically driven and willful disregard for civilian life.

ConclusionClick here to copy a link to this section​

Counting victims is important for research and to understand the magnitude of the crimes. The magnitude is clear. And behind each number are individuals whose hopes and dreams were destroyed. Efforts to name the victims are important to restore the individuality and dignity their killers sought to destroy.

Note (1)
"Other" includes, for example, persons killed in shooting operations in Poland in 1939–1940; as partisans in Yugoslavia, Greece, Italy, France or Belgium; in labor battalions in Hungary; during antisemitic actions in Germany and Austria before the war; by the Iron Guard in Romania, 1940–1941; and on evacuation marches from concentration camps and labor camps in the last six months of World War II. It also includes people caught in hiding and killed in Poland, Serbia, and elsewhere in German-occupied Europe.

 

[Estro Felino]

I remember a TV movie called Voyage of the Damned from 1976. It was about the St. Louis and their ill-fated trip to Cuba. I wondered why they just couldn't let them come to the United States. Perhaps it was more than FDR could bite off, politically, at the time. The US was still deeply affected by the Depression, although things were slowly getting better. The anti-immigrant, isolationist sentiment arose largely due to the Red Scare of the early 20s, but there were also anti-Asian sentiments on the West Coast, and the KKK was enjoying a resurgence (which would drop off during the 30s and 40s but its presence was still felt).

FDR was a product of his times and had to "play ball" with the dominant political forces in America at the time - although on the whole, I think he was generally a progressive and liberal, forward-thinking President. Ultimately, I think he proved to be a superior leader during WW2. But he knew his limitations, although when it came to dealing with the Germans and the Nazi regime, the gloves were clearly off during the war. Also, with the Japanese in the Pacific Theater. We were waging total war and accepting nothing less than unconditional surrender.

The primary historical regret that many Americans have expressed in the aftermath was that we were slow to act and perhaps didn't have the foresight to see what was coming. We weren't really prepared for war in 1939 - or even in 1941, but we had to get moving quickly - which was another of FDR's talents. Once the sleeping giant had awoken, we were fully on board with destroying the Axis powers completely.

The problem here is that people don't realize that it is the banking and financial élites who make wars.
They project wars and put them into action.
Nations have nothing to do with that, they are just pawns.

For instance, Italians have never had anything against the Americans. As soon as the Americans landed on Sicilian coasts, the population stopped fighting for the Nazis.
Edda Ciano-Mussolini was invited to Munich by Hitler, in 1943. She told them: "The war is lost, come on, assume that", and Hitler went on a rampage.

 

[Revoltingest]

For instance, Italians have never had anything against the Americans.

They just preferred Hitler.

 

[Estro Felino]

They just preferred Hitler.

Italy was allied with Britain until 1935-1936.
Britain stopped being allied with us.
Do buzz London for complaints, dear.

 

[Estro Felino]

I didn't say the number was inaccurate, but I was merely pointing out that counting the dead is process which can contain inexactitudes, even when is dealing with the most complete records possible.

How Many People did the Nazis Murder?

Behind the number of victims of the Holocaust and Nazi persecution are people whose hopes and dreams were destroyed. Learn about the toll of Nazi policies.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Those articles are pieces of evidence. Irrefutable pieces of evidence.
That mean that certain evil, diabolical minds planned the genocide of 6 million Jews 30 years in advance.
And their plan was successful. They had money...millions, or billions, after all.

 

[Stevicus]

The problem here is that people don't realize that it is the banking and financial élites who make wars.
They project wars and put them into action.
Nations have nothing to do with that, they are just pawns.

For instance, Italians have never had anything against the Americans. As soon as the Americans landed on Sicilian coasts, the population stopped fighting for the Nazis.
Edda Ciano-Mussolini was invited to Munich by Hitler, in 1943. She told them: "The war is lost, come on, assume that", and Hitler went on a rampage.

It was the Japanese who attacked America and brought us into the war - at least officially. FDR could not have persuaded enough people in Congress to declare war until that happened. However, American public opinion was shifting rapidly towards a more global outlook and away from isolationist thinking. Germany and Italy also declared war on the U.S., and less than two years later, Americans would be landing in Italy.

Of course, the standard American viewpoint after the war was that we saved Europe singlehandedly.