What's so bad about "woo-woo" beliefs?

[1137]

You mean the power of suggestion. People are susceptible to suggestion because we want to be fooled. We are afraid of reality so we invent these powerful lies to buffer ourselves against reality.

Self suggestion. That takes a lot more effort than accepting the suggestion of others, which most of us do quite easily. I am not sure what lies you are talking about, I don't see the lie in basic human psychology and power of the mind. People invent lies like gods, angels, demons, set meanings, afterlife, etc in order to feel comfortable. I am not sure what is comfortable about being in complete control of yourself, full self responsibility, being responsible for your own happiness and "salvation". Most people run from those things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, all acts of will do fit the definition but that is not what I was getting at. You see, magick is more like conscious manipulation of your mind. Using symbolism, ritual, etc in order to create that placebo effect. It takes a lot of time and practice to learn what works for you and what does not, which is why it is a practice in itself. If we actually studied this instead of throwing our straw man arguments we would probably learn quite a bit about human psychology.

However, there are also things like primitive magick that seem to work. Entire groups of people dancing for rain that bring it on. Voodoo of course is an interesting one. There are groups who supposedly have thought people to death. Whether I believe this or not I am not sure. However, with things being connected at the deepest level it seems more and more likely.

Please tell us what evidence suggests that it is more and more likely that human beings can use rituals to deliberately influence the weather.

That is fine with me, but see above. It is more than just the placebo effect.

Okay... then please give some evidence that the aspects of magic(k) that are "more than just the placebo effect" actually exist.

 

[A Troubled Man]

Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That is exactly what I expected from one who doesn't understand those principles.

Well I find it amazing that people were thinking about these things thousands of years ago.

They weren't thinking about quantum field theory by any stretch of the imagination.

This is like saying that the pyramids are not amazing because they were built by ancient civilizations, while the pyramids will be around long after our buildings are gone.

Strawman.

Ok, well like your peers I am going to assume that you are just going to ignore definitions and concepts in order to keep secure in your beliefs. The FACT is that magick works perfectly well as long as you throw out your ignorant straw men and look at it for what it really is.

LOL! Magick is nonsense, which is what it really is. But, feel free to provide as much evidence as you wish to show us just how well it does work.

Really? You want to support this claim?

You're joking?

Science uses the scientific method. Do you know what that is? If not, I can provide ample links for you to peruse.

I see no methods whatsoever in occult science. In fact, I can't even see why it is called occult "science" since there is no science provided.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If we are going to go about speaking down on the power of the mind, saying that it is nothing but superstitious nonsense we are taking a leap backwards in psychology. Tell the people who ritualistically put spikes through their face that the power of the mind has no fact behind it. Or tell the addict who gets sober on his own that his will power is fictitious. Next time you try to convince yourself pain is not so bad, you are not as depressed as you believe, some terrible event is not the end of the world; remind yourself that you believe you are telling yourself a useless lie that has no factual effect in life. It is important to practice what you preach.

I think that citing the placebo effect or the willpower of a recovered addict as support for claims about rain dances and voodoo shows irrationality if it's done sincerely and dishonesty if done insincerely.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Self suggestion. That takes a lot more effort than accepting the suggestion of others, which most of us do quite easily. I am not sure what lies you are talking about, I don't see the lie in basic human psychology and power of the mind. People invent lies like gods, angels, demons, set meanings, afterlife, etc in order to feel comfortable. I am not sure what is comfortable about being in complete control of yourself, full self responsibility, being responsible for your own happiness and "salvation". Most people run from those things.

Self-deception is the easiest form of deception there is. It must be comforting to believe that you are fully in control.

Please read this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/religious-debates/132219-what-causes-social-evil.html

 

[1137]

Please tell us what evidence suggests that it is more and more likely that human beings can use rituals to deliberately influence the weather.

I did not say this is factual. I said it is possible. There is so much that we do not understand about the universe and even our own minds. Perhaps there is a connection between the external and internal at the deepest level. I am not sure. All we can say is that extremely weird things like this happen, and since people just want to straw man it and look down on it we will never understand.

Okay... then please give some evidence that the aspects of magic(k) that are "more than just the placebo effect" actually exist.

I am not saying that there is more to it than being a placebo effect, I said it is more than just a placebo effect, as there is practice and time put into magick.

 

[beerisit]

The New Age Movement has always been about marketing, even one of it's major proponents Ken Wilbur levels that criticism. I think it fits the narcissistic generation it comes from.

OK Cyn but surely Catholicism is a very prepackaged deal as are scientology and JW's. It was just the prepackaging i was talkin' 'bout

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle]Uncertainty principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle says that while very precise measurements can be made, there's a relationship between the maximal precision of a measurement of position and of momentum for a particle that's a function of the momentum of a photon.

Please tell us what "occult science" says about the relationship between measurements of position and momentum for particles.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle says that while very precise measurements can be made, there's a relationship between the maximal precision of a measurement of position and of momentum for a particle that's a function of the momentum of a photon.

Please tell us what "occult science" says about the relationship between measurements of position and momentum for particles.

Why did you have to bring up the facts?

 

[1137]

They weren't thinking about quantum field theory by any stretch of the imagination.

Relative to where their knowledge, yes they were. What they pondered then was as complex as things like M-Theory now. Many even thought about an underlying nature of reality which in no way contradicts theories such as M-Theory. Especially Taoism.

LOL! Magick is nonsense, which is what it really is. But, feel free to provide as much evidence as you wish to show us just how well it does work.

You have the proof yourself. You have never tried to change your mind set? You have never tried to make the best out of a situation? My suggestion is go to the local community college and take psychology 101. I am pretty sure in mine discussed things such as behavioral therapy and reconditioning.

Science uses the scientific method. Do you know what that is? If not, I can provide ample links for you to peruse.

I see no methods whatsoever in occult science. In fact, I can't even see why it is called occult "science" since there is no science provided.

Occult science is trial and error. It is looking at things we cannot test currently but hopefully one day can and will. I am not sure why the term science is slapped on there to be honest, nor do I care. I take accepted definitions in order to find common ground. Give it a try!

I think that citing the placebo effect or the willpower of a recovered addict as support for claims about rain dances and voodoo shows irrationality if it's done sincerely and dishonesty if done insincerely.

Well luckily I made no such claim. I stated them as two separate things. The first we can easily understand, the second we have absolutely no understanding of. Maybe try actually reading what I said??

Well, all acts of will do fit the definition but that is not what I was getting at. You see, magick is more like conscious manipulation of your mind. Using symbolism, ritual, etc in order to create that placebo effect. It takes a lot of time and practice to learn what works for you and what does not, which is why it is a practice in itself. If we actually studied this instead of throwing our straw man arguments we would probably learn quite a bit about human psychology.

However, there are also things like primitive magick that seem to work. Entire groups of people dancing for rain that bring it on. Voodoo of course is an interesting one. There are groups who supposedly have thought people to death. Whether I believe this or not I am not sure. However, with things being connected at the deepest level it seems more and more likely.

Self-deception is the easiest form of deception there is. It must be comforting to believe that you are fully in control

If I am not in control, who is? I am not fully in control, that would completely eliminate the subconscious which we have no control over. But we can control ourselves pretty well. If you have no self control that is more of a problem than me practicing self control.

 

[PolyHedral]

Relative to where their knowledge, yes they were. What they pondered then was as complex as things like M-Theory now. Many even thought about an underlying nature of reality which in no way contradicts theories such as M-Theory. Especially Taoism.

Can you elaborate?

If I am not in control, who is?

Nobody.

 

[1137]

Why did you have to bring up the facts?

and once we deteriorate to the level of bickering children I leave. This is a waste of time anyways. Why should it matter that I believe in self control and the ability to change my mindset? Learning about magick helped me get sober from narcotics addiction as well as get me through suicidal depression. There really is not much more than that. Go ahead an claim it was all me lying to myself, that is exactly what it is, although more like convincing than lying.

Have fun everyone!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I did not say this is factual. I said it is possible.

And you said that it is becoming "more and more likely", which implies that as we gain knowledge about the world, the idea that rain dances actually work gets more and more support.

So... please tell us what some of this support would be.

There is so much that we do not understand about the universe and even our own minds. Perhaps there is a connection between the external and internal at the deepest level. I am not sure. All we can say is that extremely weird things like this happen, and since people just want to straw man it and look down on it we will never understand.

"There is so much that we do not understand" does not imply that practitioners of magic(k) understand it either. You're playing the God of the Gaps game here, only with magic(k) instead of God.

"Occult science" speaks from a position of knowledge, doesn't it? I mean, your sources of occult knowledge don't say "well, we really have no idea how things really are, but we aren't sure that this doesn't work", do they?

I am not saying that there is more to it than being a placebo effect, I said it is more than just a placebo effect, as there is practice and time put into magick.

You aren't saying this?

You're all over the map here: it seems like you're happy to make vague claims about things like rain dances and quantum mechanics when it suits you, but then you retreat when asked for reasons why you think these claims might be true.

So which is it? What do you think that magic(k) actually entails? Because when you talk about how "occult science" predicted quantum theory and the like, it sure sounds like you're talking about something more than just the placebo effect improved by practice.

 

[1137]

oh my god

And you said that it is becoming "more and more likely", which implies that as we gain knowledge about the world, the idea that rain dances actually work gets more and more support.

No, I am saying that it is likely that there is some possible connection between a group ritual and it's effects in nature. What that is, no, I have no idea. Nor do I care, as I am not sure I support the idea that such things work. Mostly coincidence. Rain dances work the same as psychics probably, they reads signs, predict the outcome, and then do a ritual and think it was their doing. However, I refuse to accept or deny something without solid evidence.

"There is so much that we do not understand" does not imply that practitioners of magic(k) understand it either. You're playing the God of the Gaps game here, only with magic(k) instead of God.

I never said that we do understand. Please actually keep up with what I am saying. We are discussing two completely different things here. Psychological magick and "magic" that supposedly can affect nature such as rain dances. The first is completely true, the second is possible. We do no know enough to claim either way, but it has nothing to do with the supernatural.

"Occult science" speaks from a position of knowledge, doesn't it? I mean, your sources of occult knowledge don't say "well, we really have no idea how things really are, but we aren't sure that this doesn't work", do they?

Really? You don't think that eliminating how things don't work is important?

You're all over the map here: it seems like you're happy to make vague claims about things like rain dances and quantum mechanics when it suits you, but then you retreat when asked for reasons why you think these claims might be true.

No, you are just completely incapable of following what I am saying because you are too wrapped up in you straw men and preconceived ideas. I NEVER claimed that there is any factual truth behind rain dances. As for quantum mechanics, it is unrelated to psychological magick and I was simply saying that there is probably more to it that may tied with "supernatural" magick.

So which is it? What do you think that magic(k) actually entails? Because when you talk about how "occult science" predicted quantum theory and the like, it sure sounds like you're talking about something more than just the placebo effect improved by practice.

Well, maybe if you could wrap you head around the fact that we are talking about two different kinds of magic(k)...

Anyways, like I said before I am taking my leave.

 

[PolyHedral]

I never said that we do understand. Please actually keep up with what I am saying. We are discussing two completely different things here. Psychological magick and "magic" that supposedly can affect nature such as rain dances. The first is completely true, the second is possible.
[...]
I NEVER claimed that there is any factual truth behind rain dances.

This is a very strange idea of "never."

 

[Erebus]

Yeah, this is kind of why I don't like discussing magic/spellcraft with outsiders. While I appreciate the varying opinions on the art, outsiders and insiders are usually talking about two completely different things when they use the word "magic." Most practitioners I've spoken to (such as yourself) consider magic to be a completely natural phenomena. If an outsider can't accept this, they probably need to bow out of the conversation because we're only going to talk circles around each other and no understanding is going to take place.

Bringing this back around to the original question posed by the thread, I think that terminology contributes to the tendency of certain groups to dismiss the New Age, Neopagan, and occult movements as nonsense. We dress up fairly ordinary occurrences in mystical terminology. Why do we do this when it confounds communication, especially with outsiders? Personally, I like the fantasy imagery and I find it fun, but it also often gets in the way.

Pretty much agree with you here. Anything with a non-scientific presentation will not appeal to those who adore science. Anything without ancient scrolls to back it up won't appeal to those who feel age creates validity. Witchcraft generally doesn't appeal to the majority of people, they have no desire or capacity to experience it and as such it's relatively inconsequential to them.

Now regarding the OP my objections regarding many new-age and occult movements stem from three things. Firstly the need to sanitize and white-wash the occult and nature itself. Disease, pain and decay are just as much a part of our world as cute animals and picturesque forests. Secondly I don't approve of attempts to replace medicine with "alternative remedies". Sure magic can help, but why use it when there are safer and more efficient methods available at a hospital? Finally the sheer amount of charlatans is disgusting. It should not cost you a fortune to cast a spell or divine the future, the means of doing this are readily available.

 

[A Troubled Man]

Relative to where their knowledge, yes they were

What is that supposed to mean?

What they pondered then was as complex as things like M-Theory now. Many even thought about an underlying nature of reality which in no way contradicts theories such as M-Theory. Especially Taoism.

LOL!

You have the proof yourself. You have never tried to change your mind set? You have never tried to make the best out of a situation? My suggestion is go to the local community college and take psychology 101. I am pretty sure in mine discussed things such as behavioral therapy and reconditioning.

As I suspected, no evidence.

Occult science is trial and error. It is looking at things we cannot test currently but hopefully one day can and will.

LOL! In other words, wishful thinking.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, you are just completely incapable of following what I am saying because you are too wrapped up in you straw men and preconceived ideas.

I'm trying my best to figure out what you're trying to say. I don't think you're communicating your arguments very clearly, so this forces me to fill in the blanks as best I can, and to interpret vague statements based on my best guess of what you mean. There's naturally going to be some error in this process, but it could all be avoided by you clearly making your points without dancing around.

I NEVER claimed that there is any factual truth behind rain dances.

Then was it voodoo? After describing voodoo and rain dances, you said, and I quote, " Whether I believe this or not I am not sure. However, with things being connected at the deepest level it seems more and more likely."

Did you just mean this statement to apply only to voodoo? Is that what the issue here is? If so, then we can back up and you can tell us the evidence that suggests to you that voodoo is "more likely".

As for quantum mechanics, it is unrelated to psychological magick and I was simply saying that there is probably more to it that may tied with "supernatural" magick.

This is the first time you've made any sort of distinction between "psychological magick" and "supernatural magick". What do you mean by the two terms? Do you think they have anything to do with each other besides the word "magick"?

Well, maybe if you could wrap you head around the fact that we are talking about two different kinds of magic(k)...

Maybe you could appreciate the fact that when you deviate from the accepted definition of a term, people aren't going to automatically know what you mean by it unless you tell them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, this is kind of why I don't like discussing magic/spellcraft with outsiders. While I appreciate the varying opinions on the art, outsiders and insiders are usually talking about two completely different things when they use the word "magic." Most practitioners I've spoken to (such as yourself) consider magic to be a completely natural phenomena. If an outsider can't accept this, they probably need to bow out of the conversation because we're only going to talk circles around each other and no understanding is going to take place.

Why call it "magic", then? It seems like the situation's set up for misunderstanding, so using the term has a considerable cost... but what does using the term get you in return?

 

[Quintessence]

Pretty much agree with you here. Anything with a non-scientific presentation will not appeal to those who adore science.

I have to say, it's funny you say that because I'm a trained scientist myself and very much do adore science. *laughs* I will admit that presentations of occult philosophy that are transparent rather than using mystical jargon are easier for me to follow. I think this is more the fault of occult writers not clearly explaining their jargon, however. It's not dissimilar to what happens to me if I read a paper too far outside of my area of scientific expertise: they use different jargon and if you don't know the jargon, what they write makes a lot less sense.

Firstly the need to sanitize and white-wash the occult and nature itself. Disease, pain and decay are just as much a part of our world as cute animals and picturesque forests.

Yeah, I think that happened with the popularization and marketing of everything. On the one hand I don't mind, because it makes us less scary to the general public that sometimes has the idea that we're baby eating monsters or something. There are still enough places to find material that hasn't been sanitized. On the other, I see it as symptomatic of New Agers cross-pollinating over much with Neopagans and the occult and I want them to go away. >_<;

Secondly I don't approve of attempts to replace medicine with "alternative remedies". Sure magic can help, but why use it when there are safer and more efficient methods available at a hospital?

I'm kind of nonplussed on that one. I'm fine letting people do what they want and I think those choices should be respected.

Finally the sheer amount of charlatans is disgusting. It should not cost you a fortune to cast a spell or divine the future, the means of doing this are readily available.

What's more sad about this, I think, is that individuals like this make it more difficult in some respects to establish non-profit organizations for our communities. There's this paranoia about anyone ever charging anything for services, even if they really do want to build a strong community or are being perfectly reasonable about it. It's bad enough that it makes outsiders dismissive of us, but worse that it sabotages us from the inside at the same time.